About
I’m a trained political scientist and historian. That’s how I make my living.
For fun, I am into dogs, especially retrievers.
I’m into natural history, world history, and true biology– the study of life in its broadest sense.
This blog has evolved into a forum of sorts.
However, we would like to keep this blog friendly and cordial. This is not meant to be “The Retrieverman Factor” or “Jerry Springer Spaniel.”
If you’d like to contact me, please email me at retrieverman1@yahoo.com.
I will try to answer you as best I can, and I generally respond within 24 hours.
35 Responses
leave one →
Regarding 19th century books: Are you familiar with this one?
http://books.google.com/books?id=B2ECAAAAYAAJ&dq=A+Sportsman%27s+Repository&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=GMbbl_CjWs&sig=B1uBK-8AC2MR6i973B033t3gWF8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
John Scott “The Sportsman’s Repository”? I wasn’t until a friend told me about it this morning.
That’s a new one!
I hadn’t seen it before.
Thanks for sending that link along.
I was directed to your write up on the Blue Lacy Breed. I am a Lacy Family descendent and also hold the registry and linage files regarding the Blue Lacy breed. It looks like you have been doing great research on working dogs. You have many enjoyable articles. I would like to help correct some of your information you received about the Blue Lacy and the Lacy Family history.
I am sure the Lacy family also hunted feral hogs, but they raised free-range domestic hogs for market. The Marble Falls area had abounded amount of acorns that made a great source of food for their hogs. The dogs would help them herd, pen and drive to market their own personal hogs and cattle. The Lacy brothers developed the breed to meet the needs of frontier life. They were great hog dogs, but that was just one task, which was asked of them. They were developed to be an all around working and hunting dog with infuses on herding and droven characteristics.
Also, you have the breed make up different. There was one article way back that stated what you wrote, but it is not accurate and does not line up with census bureau records and/or other documented information. You can find many articles and family history records that prove the breed to be Grey Hound, scent hound, and a Pariah dog (wild dog – coyote or red wolf). You can also look up this information in the “Atlas of Dog Breeds of the World” and the “Mini Atlas”. Being this breed is also the State Dog of Texas due to its rich Texas heritages, this information are also documented in the State of Texas achieves.
Being you are a historian, I felt you would be interested in some of the correction noted. Texas history and frontier life is very interesting and carries much pride associated with it. It is great there are still others out there keeping it alive.
If you have any question feel free to email or call.
Thank you,
Marlo Riley
I’ve since made the corrections. Thank you for bringing them to my attention.
It’s interesting that a pariah dog got into the mix, though, because I’ve always thought some lines of Mountain Cur, which is the West Virginia and Ohio Valley native cur landrace, had some pariah dogs in them.
Thanks. The corrections are not showing up, or I am just looking in the wrong place. Is there an email address I can email to to send you some information for your records?
http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/the-lacy-dog-one-breed-the-fancy-cant-touch/
I changed “feral” to “free range,” and “wild” to “half-wild.”
I also put in about how they fattened up the hogs, then sold them to slaughter.
Then I put something in about how the archives and other records say that the wild dog in them was a pariah dog.
I appreciate your consideration, but do need to make a few other corrections:
Family records consistently indicate the breed developed from Greyhound, scent hound, and a pariah dog, such as a coyote or wolf. I personally know George Washington Lacy’s grandchildren never heard of a pet wolf, and Frank Marion Lacy’s children and grandchildren were not told about an English Shepherd. I believe the information your received was from an old magazine article, which merely quoted a rancher’s beliefs about the breed’s origins.
The Lacy brothers did fine work and the breed is unique and special to many, especially to the family descendents still involved with the breed. Thanks for writing about the Blue Lacy.
However, the Lacy dog’s exact origins are well-known. There were four brothers with the name of Lacey who settled in Burnet County, Texas, which is in the heart of Texas Hill Country. The swarms of free-range hogs that lived in that region could have been an economic asset. Their pork was of a superior quality when the pigs were fattened, and any rancher who could catch them could make some extra money off of them. However, their dogs had a hard time handling the half-wild pigs, who were tough from several centuries of range existence. Few of the dogs in the region had the guts and drive to really bring in the hogs. The swine would be brought in and fattened up before being sent off to slaughter.
At some point in the late nineteenth century, the Lacey brothers decided to create their own hog dog strain, one that could handle the really tough swine. They would do so with the canines they currently had. One brother had an English shepherd, an unimproved collie-type dog, which they used to herd cattle. Another brother had a gray-blue greyhound, which was a great varmint dog, and another had a tamed wolf or coyote bitch that he’d raised from a pup. (Some sources, including the official Texas state archives, say that it was a pariah dog, which does make a bit of sense. Wolves are very hard to handle.) Whatever they were, they crossed these different dogs until they got a perfect hog herder.
Those are paragraphs I’ve changed.
You once suggested that the possibility of an intelligent outcross for the FCR would be to use the long haired Weimeraner. Yet my Sister kennels overseas seem to be against this mix due to the protective and aggressive nature of the Weimeraner. Do you feel this is still an intelligent choice? And if I did obtain a long haired is there really more aggression to worry about coming into the FCR lines? My gut feelings are if the resulting puppies are socialized properly fro their first 14 weeks the possibilities will be minimized for aggression and perhaps the fact that the FCR is also a part of the mix. Then the best specimen from that resulting litter can be bred back into FCR lines.
I’ve never been around a long-haired Weimaraner. I don’t remember saying it was an intelligent outcross or not, but I do know that you could start a line of silver flat-coats if you used one. That’s what Silver Lab is– a Lab that has some Weimaraner in it.
I’m not familiar with the genetic diseases in Weimaraners, especially long-haired ones. Plus, they point. Pointing behavior is associated with developing shyness in some pointing breeds.
They are a relatively healthy breed. They can have cases of Bloat. But otherwise are pretty healthy which is why I felt they would be an excellent candidate for an outcross. Just wasn’t sure about the overall temperament. And if it should be a problem with FCR. I suppose if labradors have had this outcross and it hasn’t resulted in temperament issues then I may just proceed with it. I just wanted your take on it. The overall look and feel of the Weimaraners is very similar to the FCR. So diversity would be greatly addressed with such an outcross.
Genetic diseases & problems in Weims – from http://www.sonic.net/~petdoc/BreedPre.htm
Weimaraner
Bloat
Cutaneous mast cell tumor
Cryptorchidism
Dermoid cyst of cornea
Distichiasis
Double eyelashes
Dwarfism
Entropion
Eversion of nictitating membrane
Fibrosarcoma
Hemophilia A, Factor VIII or AHF deficiency
Prolonged bleeding
Hemorrhagic episodes
Prolonged PTT
Reduced AHF
Reduced Factor VIII
Hip dysplasia
Hypertropic Osteodystrophy
Myasthenia gravis
Oropharyngeal neoplasia
Peritoneopericardial diaphragmatic hernia
Spinal dysraphism
Begins at 4-6 weeks of age
Not progressive
Crouching stance
Abduction of one leg
Hopping gait
Abnormal proprioception in hindlegs
Sterile pyogranuloma syndrome
Tricuspid valve disease
Umbilical hernia
Undershot jaw
Abnormal growth of mandible
Ununited anconeal process
And if choosing an outcross is based only on similarity of conformation, why not get a dog from Petfinder? There are lots of Heinz 57’s that are similar in phenotype to FCRs.
BTW – There are LOTs of labs that do have temperament issues.
If someone planned to create a line of silver FCRs, wouldn’t that require a great deal of INBREEDING to fix the color? Unless they had the resources to maintain a huge kennel of dozens of weims to FCR crosses. Even then, by the third or fourth generation, the inbreeding coefficients would be huge.
I’m glad you posted this. I don’t know much about weimaraner diseases.
Here’s another link that lists genetic disorders. This one includes Progressive Retinal Atrophy in FCRs, which has surfaced recently in European dogs.
http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/intro.htm
The two sites I listed are good resources for genetic diseases for most breeds. They aren’t complete, and should be used as a starting point. Nothing is a good substitute for knowing what is behind one’s breeding stock. Not just parents, but several generations back. And knowing what earlier crosses resulted in genetic problems.
Potentially disastrous health issues can be hiding several generations back, and if doubled up on (either purebred or mixed-bred) can result in severe illness, blindness, or worse.
The list goes on and on for all breeds. But there’s not enough web for all that information although I’m sure some of us would find the time.
Patti everything you say applies to all current pure breeds. And possibly will always be present in every breed. Some ailments to a lesser or greater degree. What is clear to those without the blinders on…. the current process has not provided any significant improvement for several generations. In fact you see a progression of things getting worse not better.
If you’re a purist at heart then you fight to find everything to back your claims and find reason to refuse every possible outcross presented. But at point throughout history outcrosses happened. And they were the very reason you have the dogs you do now. And quite honestly there was the same list of ailment back then too. And eventually the things that caused extinction of several breeds is just repeating itself. The Wavy, The Tweed the St. Johns are all GONE. And if things continue as they are we could possibly see the FCR decimated. If not by extinction then by an ever increasing list of issues and an already weakening gene pool.
The Weimeraner is a far healthier specimen than the FCR is currently. And just as you have aggression in Weims and Labs you also see it in FCR.
So don’t paint the picture of the FCR as the exception to the aggression issue. They are not. I’ve been to matches where some people really had some vicious FCR. One even attacked my bitch. And those hidden traits that lay dormant for generations are already an issue with current pure bred dogs. By introducing other breeds you dilute these possibilities. You may never erase them until genetic DNA mapping is complete and viable markers are found like for the PRA trait in Irish Setters. But until then are we supposed to wait until the breeding population is no longer viable. Until they are all sterile? Or perhaps when the lifespan average has been lowered to 6 years or less? Apparently there seems to be no satisfactory option for outcrossing in the eyes of the current FCR community. And if they did outcross it would be their unified effort to breed right back to the situation they find themselves in right now. Why? The Silver Labs seem to be doing fine and the breeders are in no rush to dilute the gene pool again. Silvers, Blacks, Chocolates and Yellows will just have to live on this planet together. Oh well.
Silver, as you are defining it, is a diluted liver color. If a black dog gets the gene for the diluted color, you get a blue weimaraner or a charcoal Labrador.
http://www.blueweimaraner.com/
Charcoal Labrador: http://www.silverlabs.com/images/gallerytop.jpg
I’m not taking sides in this debate, BTW. I’m just providing a forum for a good discussion. Everyone is making good points, and because I’m not a FCR owner or breeder, I want to remain neutral.
“The Silver Labs seem to be doing fine and the breeders are in no rush to dilute the gene pool again. Silvers, Blacks, Chocolates and Yellows will just have to live on this planet together. Oh well.”
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SILVER LAB. It is either 1. a diluted chocolate or 2. a lie (a Lab Weim cross).
Call things what they are.
Silver Lab BREEDERS are probably doing okay, at the prices they charge for this “rare” color. There is no evidence silver Labs are doing either fine or not fine–because it is unclear what they are (and looking at pics, they could be both 1 and 2 above), and there is no data, and there is no documentation.
I’ve never seen one–but the blacks, yellows, and chocolates are mighty fine bird-picker-uppers, and that’s what the folks I hang out with do with their dogs, and I’m sure they see no reason to seek out a novelty color. Unless it’s tied to a chair on the coffee shop’s patio, I’m pretty sure I’ll never see one.
I have nothing against a great mixed breed dog, and I have nothing against a funky-colored Lab, but I can’t stand the presumption that something different is automatically better than what it came from, and I can’t stand people calling a dog something it’s not.
Well the breeders of Silver Labs seem pretty comfortable calling them “Silver Labs” Plenty of Kennels can be found breeding them on the internet and they seem to be asking some ridiculous high prices for them. Which is pretty sad.
But even if it was derived from a cross… the objective of outcrossing would be to breed back into the lines and improve the genetic diversity. and eventually also call it a Lab, even if its SILVER. Who are you fighting here? This is being done. And apparently there is a demand And there is success since the demand for them is there. And knowing how overbred the Labradors are this is a welcomed outcross. Provided its not being carried out by a bunch of yahoos.
Still, they are called Silver Labs.
Oh, my. I SO thought I was done.
1. Breeders of silver labs are pretty comfortable calling them silver labs for the same reason breeders of puggles are comfortable calling them puggles: because it makes wallets open. Today I saw something new: “champagne” Labs. Good grief.
2. The only thing sad about it is that they advertise them as something special, but have little on their web site about the history or health of their dogs. No age, no registration number, no pedigree, no titles (and I’m talking working, obedience, agility, CGC, anything), no hips, no elbows, no CERF, no heart, no PRA, no EIC, no CNM, no nothing. Sometimes a price. Usually 1500.
3. Since when is the Lab as a breed in general evidence of poor genetic diversity? Although, come to think of it, looking at some of the oft-bred year-old studs on some of the sites I just perused, I can see some serious bottlenecks developing in the “silver” sub-population…
4. The objective of outcrossing is to improve genetic diversity AND ACHIEVE SOME TYPE OF MEASURABLE OBJECTIVE IN THE BETTERMENT OF THE BREED. Breeding for the sake of genetic diversity, just for genetic diversity’s sake, is jargon gone gibberish. Do breeders breed dogs or genes? What is the measurable betterment of the Lab from adding some unknown Weimaraner?
5. Apparently, I’m fighting windmills. But seriously–I’m fighting hucksterism disguised as responsible breeding in a breed I know and love.
6. Sure there’s a demand. PT Barnum said it best. Veblen said it too, but he took, like, a whole book.
7. Overbred? Labs? Yup. Some field trial dogs are overbred, some show dogs are overbred, some pet dogs are overbred, but GOD HELP the bitch that throws “silver, charcoal, and champagne.” She’ll be overbred for sure. I don’t see how tossing a random Weimaraner in the room for 15 minutes fixes overbreeding, inbreeding, or anything else if it doesn’t have any other purpose than to toss in a bit of DNA. How does this make a better dog? How does this make a better retriever? How does this make a better Lab?
8. Them yahoos make some fancy web sites, by golly. Truth be told, I’d rather yahoos breed Labs–they’d at least be operating on their instincts. These are hucksters at work.
9A. People who sell and buy them call them silver Labs; the AKC and the LRC call them chocolates.
9B. If a friend buys one, I’ll call it cute or smart or whatever I’d call any dog that a friend loved; the Lab has proven itself to be a remarkably resilient breed, and I’m sure I’d find something complimentary to say that was true.
9C. If a friend asks if they SHOULD buy a silver Lab, I’ll call it a boondoggle.
Well, judging from the prices and the way the one breeder I spoke with only had information on the father. I’d have to agree with you. It seems these dogs are being touted as somthing unique and special. And that is why such high price tags. Shame. It would have been a positive if the breeders were responsible.
On this one I do see your perspective. Well done.
I just spoke with a breeder of “Silver Labs” In Texas. He just told me his reasons for not putting the lineage information out front is the same as mine. He’s been harrassed by some really headstrong Labrador purists. So he says. He also doesn’t have any other dogs, just Labradors.
It seems there’s more than one point of view here.
The original lines of Silver Labs started with a cross between a weimaraner and Lab. This color was just bred for as the dogs returned to the Labrador type through generations of being bred back to the Lab lines. I don’t know of any silver St. John’s water dogs, and gray Newfoundlands aren’t that same color of gray. http://www.newfiedog.com/grey%20adult.JPG
There are also ash Chesapeakes. And they are the same color. http://www.gundogbreeders.com/classifieds/3787.html
I don’t know if that was ever a color in the St. John’s water dog, but I doubt it. I’ve never seen any records of it.
I don’t know where the ash color came from in the Chesapeake.
But I do know it’s an a diluted liver, just as it is in the silver Lab.
well just like I feel about yellow FCR. The more the merrier.
A silver Lab can be shown and registered because it’s technically a chocolate.
Then technically a silver Flattie could be shown and registered because it would technically be a Liver?
Well, that’s a moot point because silver flat-coats don’t exist.
Don’t see a contact email addy but thought you might be interested – cream/english-style Golden SAR dog working in the mess in Italy – http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/04/the_laquila_earthquake.html – photo 5.
It’s one of those 1 in about 20 of that kind that is able to be useful for something. SAR dogs usually have all the traits of a field or obedience dog, so that dog must have some good working instincts. My experience tells me that if I were looking for an SAR dog, I’d be very careful searching through European show lines of golden for a dog. I’d be fine with one that had working ancestry in there, but it’s hard to find a “white” golden that really has drive. It has nothing to do with color. It’s just that the lines that produce that color haven’t been bred for working ability. I mean Europe is more urban than America. What use would most Europeans have for a working retriever?
The Europeans do, however, have a far superior strain of working Labrador that I’d love get my hands on.
Heh.
I just thought it was neat! 
It was. It’s just that I’ve not seen one like that doing SAR work before.
You might be interested in this article about genetics and coat:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32583996/ns/health-more_health_news
Boy, that is interesting!
I’m going to do a post on it in the next couple of days.
Thank you for the link!