A look at some real Irish setter-Golden crosses

Often, those of us with the field type goldens are told that our dogs are golden-Irish setter crosses. Actually, all goldens are part setter,  but whether it is Irish or red gordon is up to conjecture.  The Tweedmouth line has two “red setters”  in the kennel records as outcrosses. These dogs were named “Samson” and “Jack,” and they added birdiness and the setter’s very strong sense of smell, as well as the dark red color.  One can deduce that at least one of them was an Irish setter.

Why? Because Irish setters, the field lines of them in particular, still produce throwbacks of their red and white ancestors.  The original red Irish setter was also a bit heavier dog than we have today. They had shorter ears, and they often had white on them.

Governor Baxter of Maine (who served from 1921-1925) had a dog  named “Garry Owen.”

Maine Governor Baxter with "Garry Owen."

Garry Owen looks retrievery. In fact, I would probably have a hard time recognizing him as a setter.  If  he did not possess that big white spot on his chest, I would’ve thought him a dead ringer for Don of Gerwn. The white spots often appear on the chest, feet, tail tips, and as flashes and blazes on the muzzle and between the eyes. These white markings occur in Irish setters that are bred for work. It also appears in field type goldens in exactly the same places. It is because of these flashes of white and the location of those marks, that I think that at least one of the setters used in the Guisachan kennels was an Irish setter.

It is easy to see how the first goldens were mistaken for Irish setters. The Irish setters were more retrievery in those days, which broader skulls, shorter ears, and heavier builds.

Today, my type of golden is once again  mistaken for the setter mix.

However, there people who are breeding this cross, and we have an idea of what the crosses will look like (photos courtesy of Sweet Liberty Kennels)

Some are quite dark.

 

Others are actually gold:

And some really look retrievery:

This dog reminds me of a golden pup that born in one of our litters. He was dark and lithe and retrieving at 6 weeks. He was pick of the litter and was given in lieu of a stud fee. I am always looking for a dog like him.

Here’s a pure field type golden:

The dogs look so similar that it is very hard to tell whether a dog is a dark field-type golden or an Irish setter-golden cross. Part of the problem is that the breeds were interbred and that Irish setters once looked more like retrievers than they do now.

My suggestion is that if you find one of these red retriever types, assume it is a field type golden. Irish setters are hard to find in the United States, when compared to golden retrievers. Finding a golden-Irish setter hybrid is even rarer.

Goldens have the St. John’s water dog coat, while setters do not. Setters do not shed as much as goldens do, and the crosses may not have the golden’s propensity to “blow coat.” But other than that, unless you want to pay for a DNA test, assume that a red long-haired retriever is a field type golden, especially if you live in North America or the UK.

Crossing setters and retrievers was a common practice in the past. Hutchinson’s Dog Breaking  (1869) has a depiction of some early retrievers. The dog in the lower left hand corner is a setter/water spaniel cross. It has the broad head of the old type Irish setter, something we see in field type Irish setters and virtually all golden retrievers. The dogs along the lower right are setter/”Newfoundland” (St. John’s water dog) crosses.