DIY Tail Docking?

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DIY Tail Docking?

October 30, 2010 by SWestfall3

I post this video to stimulate discussion:

Source.

I’m not going to say very much. Please leave your thoughts in the comments section.

Posted in Uncategorized | 37 Comments

37 Responses

on October 30, 2010 at 1:07 pm Kayleigh

I had to stop the video right before he chopped it off. That was awful. I don’t have a problem with people getting their dogs tails docked, as long as there is pain management. DIY cosmetic surgery should carry some hefty fines/jail time. That is cruelty, pure and simple.
on October 30, 2010 at 1:09 pm Marji

I did not watch the video.

Not a fan of tail docking, DIY or otherwise, except for medical reasons and performed by a veterinarian under local anesthesia (at the very least).
- on October 30, 2010 at 1:15 pm retrieverman
  
  I’m not a fan of cosmetic tail docking.
  
  Just so everyone knows.
  
  However, if one can make a good case, as the HPR people have and the livestock guardian people have, I can accept it.
  
  I don’t think it’s a great idea for pets.
  - on October 30, 2010 at 1:21 pm Kayleigh
    
    Exactly. I mean, give me one valid reason a yorkie shouldn’t keep it’s tail.
on October 30, 2010 at 2:11 pm Jackal73

I am anti-docking (ears and tail) unless there’s a valid *medical* reason to do so. Then it should be performed by a veterinarian, and pain medication supplied. Depriving a dog of its’ ears and tail for “fashion” reasons are preposterous. If someone insists the breed doesn’t “look” right without it, then they should get a different breed. (The people who dock ears in particular — there are ample dogs with natural, pointed ears. There’s no reason to breed a dog with lop ears for the express reason of cutting them off because it happens to be in vogue. A natural bobbed tail is considerably more difficult to breed, but not impossible, either.)

The arguments for docking, claiming that puppies don’t feel much because they don’t fuss, are absurd. Dogs (and many other animals) are very stoic about pain. That doesn’t mean it should be inflicted gratuitously (and tail docking without anaesthetic is inflicting gratuitous pain — there are excellent means of pain management these days).
on October 30, 2010 at 2:51 pm jen

I am anti tail docking – except for medical reasons (like when Sally the pibble kept ripping hers open at the shelter when she was too happy) and done under medical supervision with proper pain management.

Poor puppy…
on October 30, 2010 at 9:41 pm bill

You are all blowhard faux outrage losers, unless you dedicate 10x the time and energy you spend on something like this toward shaming people who peirce their babies’ ears and circumcise their penises.

Given the choice to condemn a Latina at the mall for piercing her baby’s ears or a redneck for docking his German Shorthair (dog), I could predict with 99% accuracy which one most of you would focus your energy on.
- on October 30, 2010 at 9:56 pm retrieverman
  
  I’m opposed to circumcision. I’ll give you that.
  
  But as I said before, there is a reason why HPR’s are docked, and it makes sense.
  
  I’m not for making any laws to change the way things are done.
  
  It’s just very hard to justify docking a pet’s tail in the grand scheme of things.
  
  Why are JRT’s docked but dachshunds aren’t?
  
  Dachshunds have a much easier tail to damage.
  
  And beagles get their ears cut in the briars, why don’t we crop them?
  - on October 30, 2010 at 10:28 pm bill
    
    It’s inconsistent because cosmetic reasons are usually at the core. But remember, they are dogs.
    
    What is more long term traumatic, docking a week-old dog’s tail, or putting a polyester hot dog costume on your adult rescue shepherd mix just to post the photos on your Facebook page?
- on October 31, 2010 at 12:11 am Jackal73
  
  Your comparison is not valid. I’m not opposing someone piercing their dog’s ears, I’m opposed to them *cutting them off*. And for the record I oppose circumcision, male or female. And declawing on cats. I worked for a veterinary clinic at a time when pain medication was dispensed on a voluntary basis (i.e. it was only available if the owner elected to pay for it, not an automatic part of the procedure). I’ve *seen* the long term pain signals from animals who have been docked without pain medication. Given how generally stoic animals can be in response to pain it follows that their suffering was considerably greater than they showed… and they showed it.
  
  There’s another factor here you’re not considering — the long term effects on communication and behavior. By docking a dog’s ears or tail one is effectively limiting their ability to communicate, and there’s growing evidence that it really does affect interactions with other dogs. (I don’t have the reference handy but if you look up interactions of dogs with and without tails you’ll see the breeds with docked tails consistently get more agonistic interactions from “normal” individuals, not because the dog without the tail is initiating, but because the other dogs find them harder to read. There’s only one clear case that I know of, where an owner documented greatly increased instances of aggression being directed against her black lab at the dog park after the dog’s tail was amputated as an adult from being accidentally run over).
  
  So, unlike peircing someone’s ears (or other parts), docking a dog’s ears is the equivalent of not only slicing off the lobe and part of the cartilage, but in cutting away part of the tongue as well. Your analogy doesn’t hold.
  - on October 31, 2010 at 9:20 am bill
    
    I agree with you on the communication part, and the ear trimming is harder to defend, unless, i guess, you are a dog fighter, which is a bit of a paradox.
    
    My point is the outrage over docking a DOG’s tail while not caring what people do to a HUMAN infant without their consent.
    
    Some people want to legislate over this. Let’s worry about the Weimaraners once the mutilation of human babies is sorted out.
    - on October 31, 2010 at 12:12 pm Jackal73
      
      Why does it have to be one or the other, though? Why not address both simultaneously? I support both human and animal charities, for example, and I’m sure other people are equally capable of dividing their energies and concerns.
      
      It’s also often easier to modify laws and standards around animal care than it is for people, because animals are property under the law. In many places in Europe, for example, docking and cropping is banned, so the “normal” appearance for those breeds which are docked/cropped is with appendages intact. Give it a bit of time, and dogs with ears and tails will be considered “the way the breed should look”, and people for the most part won’t think of even wanting the animal to be altered. In contrast a lot of human body modification is a complex subject socially — circumcision is a morass of conflicting cultural and moral values. That’s far more difficult to change than what people consider a desirable “look” for a dog. Speaking personally I don’t think we should delay (and let more animals suffer needlessly) while we’re waiting on the much more gradual pace of human social change.
    - on November 1, 2010 at 12:20 am Suzanne
      
      Ah, ye olde “how dare you discuss A when B is more important to ME??”
      
      I mean, really, I’m surprised you had time to read and comment on an animal-related blog when there are all those orphans in Africa to save.
      
      As it turns out, though, many of us can care about more than one thing at the same time! Amazing, I know.
      
      For example, I’m generally against tail docking AND human infant circumcision. Both. At the same time.
      
      I do think both issues tend to get more than their fair share of hysterical rhetoric, though. Tail docking is an unnecessary, cruel and painful procedure and I’ll be happy when it eventually goes out of style. I’m not in favor of legislation to take care of it. Nor do I think it’s as bad as many make it out to be. Bad, but not THAT bad.
      
      (I could only watch the first part of the video. Creepy dude inflicting torture on small puppy with cheerful dialog creeped me out almost as much as the action itself).
      - on November 1, 2010 at 12:34 am Jess
        
        “As it turns out, though, many of us can care about more than one thing at the same time! Amazing, I know.”
        
        No way! You can’t possibly care about, say, purebreds and mixed breeds AT THE SAME TIME! Not possible. The human brain can’t handle it.
      - on November 1, 2010 at 12:47 am Suzanne
        
        I then I realized I used hysterical rhetoric two whole paragraphs after decrying it.
        
        For the record, I don’t actually think tail docking is ‘torture’. Creepy Dude is creepy, but I don’t think he actually docks puppy tails because he likes their cries of pain. He’s just indifferent to them. Which is also awful, but.
        
        on November 1, 2010 at 1:41 pm Jess
        
        I watched the video and I wouldn’t say he’s indifferent. Dog breeding causes some amount of pain and discomfort, it’s inherent. The act of breeding itself can be painful for the bitch, some will scream or cry. Birthing is painful; Afghans are noted screamers and both my pure and cross bitches will vocalize. Pups vocalize for lots of reasons, (too hot, too cold, hungry, wandered away from sibs/mom), they can vocalize during some types of handling (nail trimming), etc. Someone who has experienced these things several times over is going to have a different reaction than someone who hasn’t. You either get inured to it so that you can dampen your emotional response, or you get out of breeding.
        
        Dog breeders actually have discussions on whether to euthanize a very defective pup (one that is injured or deformed in such a way that it will die soon) at home when vet care is not immediately available, and how best to do that. It squicks people out but it is something to be considered if you’re going to breed.
        
        Of course some breeders still firmly believe that tiny pups cannot feel pain, perhaps they really are indifferent.
    - on November 2, 2010 at 9:50 pm Pai
      
      This blog is about dogs, not children. Hence, it would be rather off topic for people to start ranting about circumcision and ear piercing of kids.
  - on October 31, 2010 at 2:23 pm Donna
    
    <>
    
    What exactly do you mean by “long term pain signals”? And are you talking about puppies who are docked at less than 7 days of age or adult dogs who had it done for medical reasons?
    
    Personally, I highly question that 3-day-old puppies are in any way stoic.
    
    Me, I had to look away when the guy started twisting the tail. I was not expecting that, and it kind of freaked me out. Yikes! I thought breeders took tails off with scalpels or nail clippers. Anyhow, what really struck me was that the noises the puppies made were virtually identical to the noises I hear from them when dams get up out of the whelping box for a potty break or upon similar minor disruptions of their sense of well-being.
    - on October 31, 2010 at 5:27 pm Jackal73
      
      I’m talking about docking and cropping that’s done anywhere from puppyhood to adulthood. A lot of ear cropping is done between 8 and 14 weeks, and tails are often done at the same time. Some people will get an unaltered adult animal and choose to dock (or get the claws removed in the case of a cat). Ear docking in dogs doesn’t happen outside of puppyhood because the ear will not stand if it’s done later, but outside of that many other operations aren’t just performed in early infancy.
      
      As for the long term pain signals, it’s a qualitative assessment that is a little difficult to describe. First, diminished movement and guarding of the affected body part (backside, head, or paws in the case of dew claw removal or declawing in cats). Secondly, there’s a “turned inward” focus, for want of a better term, that you don’t see in animals who aren’t in pain. Often you can see a strained, pinched expression on the face too, sometimes it’s just that withdrawn, turned inward-ness. It’s nothing as dramatic as screaming, or limping, or any of the things that people consider to be pain signals. Rather it’s a diminishment — diminished movement, diminished interest in things, lessened appetite, lessened water consumption, and in some animals a frantic attention seeking — and others a total withdrawal from attention seeking. Depending on the animal some will also throw proportionately many more stress signals, and others will shut down entirely.
      
      It’s harder to tell with such young pups as in the video, but with slightly older puppies or even adults you can see distinct impact from the pain for several weeks after an operation. It’s particularly obvious in cases where people are giving medication, actually — you can clearly see the difference in “tension” between when the animal is freshly medicated, and when the pain medication has worn off. Things like the quality of sleep and speed of healing are also affected, but again it’s a subtle difference that some people don’t notice or choose to ignore.
      
      There’s also an entire poorly understood field in veterinary medicine that has to do with phantom pain particularly from docked tails (aside from leg amputations). There are some dogs that suffer ongoing “phantom limb” pain just like a human amputee. In some cases its’ so bad that it interferes with the dog’s quality of life so much that the owners choose to permanently medicate. Of course this type of thing is still an emerging field of study. You’ll still get some die hards that insist that animals don’t feel pain like people do. And admittedly, many animals seem to “just live with” considerable sources of pain and illness, but that doesn’t mean it should be inflicted gratuitously. I also suspect (but have no facts to back it up) that dogs probably experience “phantom limb pain” in the ears, too, but unlike the tail they can’t show it by continually licking the area, etc.
      - on October 31, 2010 at 11:42 pm Jess
        
        Excellent comment. I lost a dog to cancer recently and he was in a good deal of pain, it was very obvious when the medication started wearing off. Even looking at pictures of him before he became symptomatic and was diagnosed, I can see from his expression that he was uncomfortable.
        
        I used to keep Great Danes, our male was cropped at seven weeks old by a vet with an excellent reputation for doing good show crops. It was the breeder’s first litter, she had acquired all of her own dogs after they were cropped and mostly healed, and when she saw the puppies after surgery, she cried.
        
        This is an issue I’m conflicted on. I wouldn’t say I’m against cropping and docking because so many dogs that are docked and cropped seem to be just fine. But I cannot deny that the more research I see into the issue, the harder I find it to say, “Well, it’s your dog.”
        
        on November 1, 2010 at 11:23 am Jackal73
        
        Thanks for letting me know I described it decently. It’s a difficult phenomenon to convey because it’s subtle (well, to humans who can’t smell or otherwise perceive the change in body state due to distress) and individual, but it’s definitely there.
        
        Saying “the puppies didn’t vocalize more than they would over another slightly distressing event” misses the fact that (1) many animals are stoic to avoid attracting the attention of predators/scavengers or hostile conspecifics and (2) vocalization is only one part of the signalling mechanism, and not necessarily the most marked. Granted, infant puppies don’t convey (to humans) much past the most extreme basics anyway, but saying they don’t scream particularly loud or long therefore the pain must not be bad is reasoning based on incomplete information. If we could get readings of things like changes on stress hormones in the blood then I think we would have a much more accurate idea of the impact of pain.
        
        Working at the veterinary clinic definitely changed my thinking on cropping/docking/declawing. I went in with no particular preconceptions because my personal and family dogs had always been unaltered, but I didn’t see why others shouldn’t choose to do so (i.e. “It’s your dog”). I came away convinced it was much more stressful on the animals than merited for a cosmetic operation. (Especially when one factors in the risks from things like anaesthetics. Most veterinary surgeries are very good, but accidents still happen, and puppies die needlessly as a result.)
        
        Declawing in particular bothers me very much. Many vets still perform the operation, arguing that the declawed cat is alive and cared for in a home, and therefore better off than those which are abandoned or killed in shelters, which is certainly a valid point. I still think that someone seeking to have their cat declawed should have to submit to having one of their own nails pulled first, though. Because I’ve experienced that through an accident, and the pain — and length of time I experienced it for — were enough to convince me that the integrity of curtains and furniture is not enough to merit putting an animal through that. Or if the curtains and furniture are that important, then don’t have a cat. Still, everyone has to decide based on their own conscience. I just wish that we knew more, understood better, because then there would be more room to make truly informed decisions. It could really be that the impact *isn’t* that great, but the suspicion that there’s more going on than we know is definitely enough to raise concerns for me.
        
        on November 1, 2010 at 1:56 pm Jess
        
        Interesting study:
        
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1595204/
        
        on November 1, 2010 at 8:35 pm Jackal73
        
        Thanks for the link! That was exactly the type of thing I was thinking of, though I don’t think studies have been done in dogs. It would be interesting to compare docked/cropped (and done at different ages) to unaltered dogs to see how long cortisol levels are elevated, and if there’s any correlation with other things.
        
        on November 1, 2010 at 9:18 pm Jess
        
        I thought the rat studies were very, very interesting. I used to raise rats and they are definitely very much like dogs in regards to cognition, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to extrapolate from rats to dogs.
        
        on November 1, 2010 at 11:29 pm Jackal73
        
        I could be wrong because my undergrad mammalian physiology is long behind me, but aren’t rats considerably more plastic in terms of neurological development during the first two weeks post-partum (i.e. before the periderm comes off the eyes and ears)? If anything that would mean they would potentially recover more quickly and more adaptively than dogs. (Pure speculation on my part, as I am not a developmental biologist.)
        
        Even if they’re quite different from dogs they’re still mammals and therefore “close enough” in gross terms. It’s very interesting — and somewhat alarming — to see the evidence of long term impacts from traumas in infancy.
on October 31, 2010 at 2:11 am margot

thanks for this video. everyone can hear that “the pups don’t feel any pain” …
on November 1, 2010 at 12:40 pm M.R.S.

I’m happy to have a breed where neither ears nor tails are altered. The original reasons for ear cropping are no longer valid, in most cases. I’ve worked as a veterinary assistant for many years, and seen first-hand all the procedures done (and done well) by a veterinary surgeon.

As Scottie has said, there are valid reasons for shortening tails on certain breeds.

Tail docking on a 3-day old puppy does hurt the pup for a very short time. And they protest. However, at this age, their neurological systems and brain are so immature that a minute or so after the procedure (which is very brief) when they are put back in the warm box with littermates, they are quiet and usually fall asleep quickly. My vet uses sterile technique, clamping the tail, cutting, then suturing with absorbable stitches. (Very different than the twisting or banding often used by DIYers).

Yes, studies have been done on the duration of pain in neonatal puppies; I don’t have the references. A 3-day old pup, by its actions, shows that it quite obviously does not “remember” the pain of the docking in the same way as a pup a week older.

The use of any sort of anesthetic in very young puppies can be very dangerous; they don’t react to those drugs in the same ways as more mature individuals. The risks outweigh the brief duration of pain in a neonate.

Personally, I see no real reason for either cropping ears or docking tails for purely cosmetic reasons. British Dobes, Danes, Boxers etc with natural ears are very attractive.
- on November 1, 2010 at 1:28 pm Jess
  
  So it’s okay to cause pain if the pup isn’t going to remember it?
  - on November 1, 2010 at 5:05 pm M.R.S.
    
    Jess, I put “remember” in quotes to help signify not only that it is not a concious memory of pain; but also that it is most probable that the neonate puppy’s brain does not yet have the neurological connections to maintain the sensation of pain past the original happening; that is, once the causation is removed. (My apologies for not having more concise scientific terms). IF docking is to be done, it should be done right around 3 days of age. At that age pups are still much less developed than are newborn human children; the pups can’t even see or hear until a week or more after that 3-day mark, another indication of neurological immaturity.
    
    Nowhere did I say or imply that it is “okay” to inflict pain randomly or without a clear and sufficient reason. But, as you have already indicated, there are times when a dog breeder must be prepared for the dog to experience occasions of pain or discomfort.
    
    If the owner of the litter is determined that tails will be docked, then I would far rather that a skilled person (like my veterinarian) perform the procedure properly and causing the least possible injury, pain or discomfort. I’ve seen the results of botched docking/cropping, and it bothers me as much as anyone. My vet himself would be entirely happy if he never was asked to dock/crop/declaw/dehorn another animal…but until that time, he does it the best way possible for the animal.
    - on November 1, 2010 at 9:16 pm Jess
      
      That was actually more of a rhetorical question. But it does beg the question, “what is acceptable pain?” If docking is acceptable because the pups do not remember it, does that mean cropping is not because the pups are older? What about the actual breeding, should we do AIs to avoid pain to the bitch? What about the birth? Should there be pain control for that? Where is the line drawn between acceptable pain and unacceptable pain?
      
      Before you decide that pups are neurologically immature just because they cannot see or hear, read the link I posted above, specifically in regard to the leg cutting studies. There are some interesting results there.
      - on November 2, 2010 at 11:35 am M.R.S.
        
        Those questions will have to be answered by each person for him/herself. What is “acceptable” for one may not be for another, based on their own beliefs and feelings, the dogs (or other animals) that they are dealing with, and their personal circumstances.
on November 2, 2010 at 11:16 am Peggy Richter

I don’t have a breed that is docked or cropped. I don’t really understand why one couldn’t breed for prick ears if one wants it, nor for natural bob tails if one wants it. OTOH, I regularly dock the tails of my sheep AND I regularly ear tag my sheep. The latter is a legal requirement for scrapie id when one sells sheep other than for food. I can tell you that the sheep respond a great deal more to the ear tagging than they do to the tail docking if the tail docking is done within a week of birth. And then there is removing the balls of those male sheep that aren’t intended to stay rams. None of this is done with the assistance of a vet — there AREN’T any large animal vets that “do” sheep anywhere closer than 200 miles. I don’t do these things with indifference, but even though I’m looking at converting to dorper hair type (the only sheep that don’t have wool that draws flies on their tails), the only means to keep unwanted boys from breeding the ewes other than castration is selling or killing them. As for the ear tags, I’ve seen some sheep with 3 or more (id for sex, age, breed + each ranch they’ve been on as requried by law).

Just a bit of perspective.
Peggy Richter.
- on November 2, 2010 at 9:56 pm Pai
  
  “I don’t really understand why one couldn’t breed for prick ears if one wants it, nor for natural bob tails if one wants it.”
  
  Because that would generally require *gasp* CROSS BREEDING! =O
- on November 2, 2010 at 10:48 pm Jackal73
  
  In this case the alterations you’re describing have a functional purpose. I don’t think anyone disagrees that sometimes such things are necessary. However, with the ear punching you’re talking about a punch, not cutting a substantial portion of the ear off entirely.
  
  Sheep also don’t use their ears and tails to the same degree that dogs do in communication. I suspect (this is without any scientific basis so I readily concede I could be wrong) that dogs have a stronger awareness of the tail in particular because they signal with it a great deal more. Sheep will wave their tails in excitement, or raise or lower them in response to threats, but they don’t exhibit the vast number of positions that you’ll see in many dogs in response to variety of situations. This is a big part of my personal objection to tail docking, quite apart from inflicting pain on the dog for purely cosmetic reasons — by taking off the tail one removes a major outlet of communication.
- on November 3, 2010 at 12:27 am Suzanne
  
  Interesting. The few small herd sheep owners I know dock their lambs tails with rubber bands. It doesn’t seem to cause them distress, they don’t bleed and the tail falls off on its own.
  
  I’m also told that lambs and calves are often castrated in a similar manner.
  
  Not sure about ear tagging, but there appear to be more humane alternatives for tail docking and castration.
  - on November 3, 2010 at 12:30 am Jess
    
    I know a few dog breeders that dock pups with bands.
    - on November 3, 2010 at 12:32 am Suzanne
      
      And I know the author of the Daily Coyote blog neutered her coyote with a band because she didn’t want to stress him at a vet.

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by Scottie Westfall

DIY Tail Docking?

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DIY Tail Docking?

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