Jose Cruz of Chatham Hill Retrievers takes on the old school dog fancy.
Whatever he’s doing it gets under the skin of people who really need to be taken down a peg!
NB: I will not respond to any e-mails slandering Mr. Cruz. They will be forwarded to him, so he can make fun of you!
You know, you never call me Ms. Ruffner when you point to one of my posts.
Because you’re the boss.
That means I only get a first name? Like Cher? ;)
Jess sounds more authoritative than Ms. Ruffner.
That’s because ‘Jess’ is gender more gender neutral. Which is actually kind of sad.
Jess is wild and free, hair ruffled in the wind, on a crest, looking at the far horizon, dogs standing at the side, also looking. Kind of, ‘Hero and the Crown’ by Robin McKinley. One of the best books I ever read!. Hari = Jess in more ways than the ambiguity of the name.
ms ruffner, although modern, lacks charisma and passion.It is cool and scholarly, so it also has its uses. And of course Jess Ruffner has both those aspects.
My hair is not long enough to ruffle :)
Possibly short and corded then. :-)
I suspect that its a case of familiarity breeds informality. ;-)
I like this guy. :-)
There is something that could get very big going on here.
I think this is the most exciting group of dog bloggers! I can’t tell you how long I have waited for dog people such as you and your friends.
First, describe any aspect of the establishment dog world as it is today. Begin anywhere.
Second, describe the problems and issues they have created for themselves and the implications.
Third, offer alternatives.
I am so inspired and excited!
Alright he kinda rambles. What exactly is he dong? Crossbreeding like Jess? (I have nothing against cross breeding and Im totally for it actually. Thanks to this blog its really opened my eyes bout things)
Rambles….not at all. Where I come from that’s called keepin it real.
Is their breeding philosophy and or practicum in other posts?
How about “the Jess”?
I came in late. Let me get this straight. Jess committed the sin of x-ing a saluki with an afghan hound. Right?? And that elicited death threats from anonymous lunatics? I mean, had she crossed human x chimp or boxer x corgi, I might have sent a tasteful, hand-lettered death threat, too. But, seriously, isn’t it illegal to threaten people? Can’t you sue them and take their houses?
Actually, Cattanach was not well-received.
He lost a lot of credibility with the FCI over the Boxer-Corgi cross. It was only recently after the pro-outcross people started picking up on the project, he was redeemed.
ok, I’ll bite. I didn’t see on his web page anything regarding health checks. OFA? CERF? Phosphofructokinase (PFK) for the cockers and Cocker x? information on cancer in his dogs? (even if negative). Nor did I see anything regarding obedience, agility, tracking, field dog tests/trials or even just going out with dad (or mom) to hunt birds. I did see some conformation shots. So if he is talking about health in the dogs, where is his information? I’m a firm believer that one leads by example.
Hmmm, you know Peggy I read your blog. And after I actually read through something I’m interested in I find the answer to my questions were answered in your blogpost. Because I actually read it.
So does obedience and tracking and agility and field test results make the criteria for your perfect dog? I see how that applies in your life. I just wonder if what applies for you as your criteria for what qualifies as a dog really works for the rest of the world that doesn’t track, run through an obstacle course, or pretend to be a hunter?
Btw…I don’t think he breeds Cockers.
peggy i’m pretty sure he mocked people who OFA and CERF their dogs at the bottom of that ramble.
And why knock people for using older dogs at stud? My dog was fine until about 18 months then came down with a genetic illness ( That his mum dad , grandparents and great grandparents showed no signs of and his inbreeding isnt high)
They also say they havent got older dogs as they are new to it. their philosophy might be great but its a bit cocky to say you know everything when you’ve not even buried a few dogs. Thats like the idiots in cavaliers who’ve been in the breed 5 years and believe that Mvd and Sm really isnt a problem and all cavaliers live to be 23 but everyone else lies and tells you they drop dead at 9
The point can also be made the breeders that produced their dogs already buried plenty.
Inbreeding? Did you say inbreeding? Understanding how double recessives apply why would inbreeding even be mentioned? Were there any genetic tests to screen for this genetic illness your dog died of? Were the lines researched back further than the standard three generations the Kennel club always presents. Ummmm. there are answers to be gathered from proper research or even just calling and asking your breeder for more information or even inquiring about siblings. It’s tedious, but often reveals much more about your dogs origins and possible problems.
That’s a real shame about your dog, but still a poor example.
sorry perhaps should have made myself clearer . The post on the above blog knocked health testing, pedigree research ( there was something about being told their dogs had relatives with illnesses )
not using older dogs and mentioned letting a bitch choose its mate , which sounds to me like they think if the dog looks ok and isnt closely related it is probably ok, which is not true as recessive genes can pop up , they dont have to be closely related and thinking your dogs looks fine at 10 months and his relatives look fine isnt good enough.
I have spent a lot of time with parents , great grandparents, cousins etc of my dogs and non of them showed obvious signs of this illness and non of his siblings are obviously affected either.
So I was trying to counter someone coming back at me with “yeah thats your dog but he was probably inbred and had it in his family, but my 10 month old is fine.
and yes breeders behind our dogs will have experience and buried a few ( if they dont sell them on) but breeders are not always honest when sharing that experience and its only when you’ve had a few of your own suffer from various illnesses that you learn exactly what problems are out there.
Spending a fortune at the vet and watching your dogs die ( & PTS is not always quick and easy with certain illnesses) gives you a bit of insight into why you dont want these problems repeated in future generations.
I’m the poster. And I understand your perspective.
Its okay Jean. I do care about my dogs. My resources have it covered.
I’ve had my share of dishonest breeders. So I’m a bit fed up is all.
And no one wants this for future generations unless they’re sadistic.
“Or explain to me how a mature male dog between 10 and 12 Months has different sperm from the same dog at 24 months? All formalities aside if they want to wait 24 months for a stud before breeding it, go ahead. I’m sure any problems found anyway in the puppies that dog fathered at 24 months old were avoided if they had him stud at 11 months”
People wait so that if any genetic diseases pop up between 12-24 months, they can reevaluate their decision to do a mating.
His first blog post(http://chathamhilldogs.blogspot.com/2012/01/0-0-1-1129-5524-cruzin-creations-178-87.html) has some info on his take on testing. He is for genetic tests but don’t think phenotype-based screenings are very useful.
IME, if food allergies are going to pop up they do so between two and three years old. I’ve had food allergies in my Afghans and wait until they are older to breed them. They can also have juvenile cataracts (no DNA tests), which usually show by two years.
My male dogs have also taken a long time for finishing growth, up to three years.
Well the dogs are older now. And none of the allergies or cataracts… knock on wood.
Right. Genetic diseases and disorders can pop up in the first year, too. The tests are the same.
Mitral valve disease doesnt pop up in the first year or the second year. Breed from 10 month olds carrying early onset mvd for a few generations and you could end up with a line of dogs that dont get past 7 or 8 , but you wouldnt know that until great great granny died.
If you dont know the signs or go to the vet for yearly vacc and check ups you might not know there was a problem until you find your dog collapsed and slowly suffocating
It does for cavaliers. I’ve been told by both breeders, buyers and even Veterinarians… its an acceptable disorder in this breed. WTF? How is that acceptable? Even a heart Murmur is said to be normal. When is a friggin heart murmur normal? When the dogs have been breed this way for so long its just the norm… that’s when. When there too closely line bred or when they just plain inbred.
Mild heart murmurs are actually quite common in older small dogs. They are also common in older Salukis. Most of these dogs do not go on to develop heart disease, like many Cavs do. Last time I checked, it was twenty percent of dogs with murmurs go on to develop heart disease.
Murmurs are common in humans too. But, doctors and vets agree while common, murmurs are not normal. And 20% is a high number to go on to develop heart disease. I think that statistic might be the same for humans too. And humans don’t find a 1 in 5 chance of coming down with a terminal condition normal or acceptable.
Dodo… Actually he finds merit in all testing and points out where he feels they apply. ;-)
Sengimage said Peggy I read your blog.
== presume you mean my posts, since I don’t have a blog per se.
So does obedience and tracking and agility and field test results make the criteria for your perfect dog?
==no, since I include other things (health results, temperment, etc) and also because “trial” results are not perfect indicators. But they DO indicate that someone has gone to the trouble of TESTING their dogs for fitness for physical characteristics and trainabilty in a venue that is more impartial than their own personal opinion. I’m happy to include “working ranch dog” for herding documentation, although I’d like to see what that entailed. I don’t insist on titles per se — they happen to be documentation that can last past a dog’s death or the owner/handler’s memory.
I just wonder if what applies for you as your criteria for what qualifies as a dog really works for the rest of the world that doesn’t track, run through an obstacle course, or pretend to be a hunter?
== I don’t pretend to be better than everyone else, but I can say that yes, it seems to work — dogs out of my breedings have been search/rescue dogs, biological search dogs and a good % have been “dogs to enjoy a sport with” as well as all of them being well loved pets. But I do encourage people to “do something” with their dog because it does, imo, develop a better bond with the dog to DO things with the dog. I don’t care if it’s cute dog tricks. When people do things with their dogs, it’s much less likely that that dog will end up as a rescue, for one thing.
as for the cockers, no, I don’t think he breeds cocker to cocker. but he does breed cocker to flattie. got no problem with “designer dogs” but he should be testing those cockers he uses for genetic disease. I did NOT see that having been done. All dogs can have eye disorders, Didn’t see CERF documentation. Ditto on hips & elbows.
On using older dogs vice younger dogs, my personal view is that with an older dog you have more data regarding issues that currently don’t have a DNA test. For example, OFA (I prefer OFA to pennhip), CERF — you can get pannus at a later age. Cancers. in my breed, the monster in the closet is epilepsy, for which we do not even have a “test for affected” other than the dog having fits when someone sees it. So an older dog gives you a chance to have info on that dog and it’s siblings that you would not have with a younger dog. Leon F. Whitney once suggested breeding to the oldest good dog one could find. In some respects, where the DNA tests aren’t there, this is still good advice. Easier to do with the males than the bitches.
Sorry…then I have you mistaken for someone else that has a nice blog I read on occasion. My apologies.
You should read his post then Peggy. It appears he has answered all your questions.
What makes you think he doesn’t require anyone does something with his dogs? Or for that matter that he doesn’t have as many of his dogs in Obedience, Therapy and other areas that would meet your approval? With as much grief as he gets from the Established PRICKING order why should he make it so easy for them to get answers, perhaps there’s joy in seeing them fabricate fantastic tales and sharing that with his friends that know him for a really good laugh and confirmation of the lunacy that is the dog fancy?. After all it does sound like he provides a better screening process than the established Pricking order.
So passing in a competitive trial sets the baseline for you? That’s what you measure all other dogs against? Hmm? Okay whatever floats your boat. But, I do think this guy has quite a few dogs doing many of the same things yours do. And it looks like he is involved with many activities with his opwn dogs. He seems to enjoy his life, his kids and his dog. He does his own thing and even shares his joy with the dogs he sells to the client base that seems to meet his approval. And he’s not bugging you for information on your dogs either. ;-)
His dogs seem to all have a wonderful temperament. Seems his client base confirms this and his website outside of his blog sort of showcases this. So I really don’t get your point. He obviously answers his phone when you call him and he seems to be open and honest with his customers. So I don’t see your point. He even goes as far as to commit his efforts to the care and well being of his dogs… so he obviously is concerned for their well being. So again I don’t get your point. I do see clearly all of your ASSuming things to fill in the blanks as you see fit.
Perhaps making an attempt to buy one of his dogs might find you not getting one? Who knows?
What tests are relevant for you with F1 crosses? Perhaps he does test for some things at a DNA level with his F1b etc? There’s a lot of ASSumption going on and it seems that’s one of the things he’s writing about.
I suppose he would ask you. After all those physical tests what have you prevented in your dogs? Or if you’ve done any crosses yourself? Perhaps his crosses not only provided a better outlook for his FCR, But also for those Cockers you’re worried about?
And your view on an older dog is valid but still can go as bad as using a younger dog. It seems like a calculated gamble either way. But, then perhaps there were older dogs used to create his own dogs. Maybe he’ll continue to use his young dogs as they age. Maybe they’ll live as long as many of their relatives, maybe they’ll die prematurely? Lots of ASSuming going on. I’m sure he knows that if there is a problem with any part of his planning…he’ll make changes.
When clearly he doesn’t tell you what to do.
He…((being Me))…. that is.
It’s an interesting point of view, but because of the writing style, it comes off as sour grapes and is whiney, IMO. It’s always acceptable to stay classy especially when the bad players in breeding really are being a-holes. In the end, they just make themselves look worse, but this guy comes out looking bad too because he feeds into it and seems to take it too personally. I hope he is able to acheive his goals with his dogs, whatever they are.
Classy? You know, people from different demographic regions will vary in opinion. I often see the posts and blogs from UK people and think.. Wow so stuffy and elitist. Then there’s the US based Blogs and posts, and I’m more comfortable with their presentations. More upfront and direct. Then there’s Scottie and his crew and I’m like wow … very cerebral.
I don’t see whiney at all. But if that’s how you see it. I guess you’re allowed.
Next time I’ll stuffy it up a bit to make it classy.
You should try the more cerebral approach instead of a fuck you defensive approach. Your targeted audience may actually listen to your message.
I do really like the “you can suck it” attitude though. It takes some guts to middle finger the old school breeders publicly. Mad props.
One thing about dog registry that has not yet been pointed out, is that even for cross-bred or not-”pure-bred”-dogs, some sort of registry with accurate records could serve as a source of a great deal of useful information. One of the current problems with the unregistered sled dog strains, is that (according to one musher/breeder I read) they have no way of researching ancestry of, say, a dog they want to breed to. They may find a dog they like a great deal and would like to use in breeding, but the owner can provide very little information of what may be behind the dog. They “just don’t have time” to put that information into an on-line database– or even to keep paper records at home, it appears.
The original reason for registry was for the purpose outlined above– record-keeping. Up at least until the middle of the 20th century, the Kennel Club (UK) did allow registry of dogs with unregistered (and unknown) parentage, and those dogs’ descendants could be registered. Certainly that was a way of serving more than one purpose — record-keeping, and allowing genetic diversity (even though they didn’t use that term) and the bringing in of desired traits.
MRS… that last part you mention… was at the time a spark of brilliance. Perhaps the registries should consider doing this again. ????
While there isn’t any registry out there for sled dogs you will find almost all keep their lines well documented and many also post their pedigrees and dogs stats online. Sled dog have their own online pedigree database.
I agree with MRS. The point of a registry should be record keeping. As for the blog and website of Mr. Cruz, I did look at his website. I didn’t find any information there. I did look at his blog (admittedly not the whole thing, but the several most recent posts). I didn’t find the information I was looking for. Therefore, if Sengimage feels “You should read his post then Peggy. It appears he has answered all your questions.” — perhaps I missed it. Could you point me to where he does have the health information on his dogs and what else he has done with them?
Sengimage: What makes you think he doesn’t require anyone does something with his dogs?
== He doesn’t say so. He apparently doesn’t do any of it himself (again, if it’s there, please correct me). As I said, one should lead by example.
Sengimage: Or for that matter that he doesn’t have as many of his dogs in Obedience, Therapy and other areas that would meet your approval?
==you are misusing what I said. I don’t CARE what areas he does stuff in. I do care that apparently he doesn’t do ANY. And yes, if one is slamming others for how badly they breed dogs, then one ought to have a better record of breeding good sound healthy (and functional) dogs oneself. If one doesn’t I think the word is “hypocritical”.
With as much grief as he gets from the Established PRICKING order why should he make it so easy for them to get answers
== that’s non sequitur. His grief (or lack thereof) is not why he should put the information regarding health, etc on his dogs. It’s to indicate what he does/doesn’t consider important. If you consider health important, then you provide health information, regardless of who does or doesn’t like it. If you are going to pan others for their lack of healthy animals but decline to provide information on your own animals, we get back to hypocritical.
Semigmage: So passing in a competitive trial sets the baseline for you?
==I think I made it clear that it wasn’t. I said specifically “working ranch dog” for herding, which is not competitive. A dog able to function in a performance venue is a baseline. I’m not that fussy about which venue, although IMO, a hunting dog ought to have some hunting ability, a herding dog ought to be able to do some minimal herding. If one has a flat coat retriever, it ought to be able to retrieve. I don’t really care if it is doing that as “dock dogs”, Frisbee, family gun dog, tests (not all titles are competitive) or trials. A sighthound ought to be able to run.
But, I do think this guy has quite a few dogs doing many of the same things yours do.
== If he does, I’m happy to be informed of which dogs those are. And what things those might be. Because again, I couldn’t find it on his website. I’m happy to be corrected, but not just by you saying “it’s there”. The URL, please.
Perhaps making an attempt to buy one of his dogs might find you not getting one? Who knows?
== not interested in his dogs. They might be grand dogs, for all I know, although I wouldn’t buy a dog without knowing more about the health and capabilities of the dog than are apparent on his website. But I have no current interest in gun dogs.
What tests are relevant for you with F1 crosses?
== I think my first post indicated that. For starters, OFA, CERF, the PFK test for those with cocker parents (ancestors) if he didn’t DNA test the original cocker parents/ancestors. Probably some information on longevity in his dogs (or their ancestors) if available. Do any of his dogs hunt (they are all gun dog breeds or crosses thereof). I don’t know if any of the other tests available (heart, thyroid, DNA tests like those offered here http://www.vetgen.com/canine-services.html etc) are applicable to his breeds (and the crosses thereof).
Perhaps he does test for some things at a DNA level with his F1b
==then he ought to say so. Silence implies absence.
I suppose he would ask you. After all those physical tests what have you prevented in your dogs?
== and I’d be happy to refer him to those who have dogs from my line for the answer. Or what I’ve put on my website. And no, I haven’t done any crosses. I know plenty of folk in the herding world who have, however, and have no issue with that as long as it’s done openly.
And your view on an older dog is valid but still can go as bad as using a younger dog.
==sure. And it is always a calculated gamble with ANY dog until we have the means for entire DNA of each individual dog and can “dial a characteristic” – which I don’t see happening in the immediate future. However one can increase or decrease odds. My comment was that he was saying people felt their older dogs had some advantages over younger ones and yes, in regards to some tests (thyroid being another besides OFA) where immature dogs don’t provide the information that older dogs might.
But, then perhaps there were older dogs used to create his own dogs…. Lots of ASSuming going on… I’m sure he knows that if there is a problem with any part of his planning
==– assumptions go both ways. HE’s assuming that his young dogs are as sound as other’s older ones. Maybe they are. But without OFA, CERF, etc, for both animals, how would you know? And you can’t do some tests until the animal is mature. You are assuming regarding fixing a problem with “his planning” “if” it occurs. Well, and so with anyone else, including those he is slamming. Again, lead by example.
When clearly he doesn’t tell you what to do.
==would seem that “he” is telling others what “he” sees as them doing something wrong. But I don’t see him doing things better. I don’t care about the coat type, coat color or designer dogs. But doing these things doesn’t in and of itself make a line better health wise, function wise or as companions.
I agree with MRS. The point of a registry should be record keeping. As for the blog and website of Mr. Cruz, I did look at his website. I didn’t find any information there. I did look at his blog (admittedly not the whole thing, but the several most recent posts). I didn’t find the information I was looking for. Therefore, if Sengimage feels “You should read his post then Peggy. It appears he has answered all your questions.” — perhaps I missed it. Could you point me to where he does have the health information on his dogs and what else he has done with them?
(((Again..which ones are relevant for any guarantee you will be getting a puppy that is free and clear of a genetic problem. I understand if testing to ascertain the current status of your dogs applies, but there is no way to say these test are a guarantee your puppies are not going to get anything. Clearly testing for hips only tells you what the condition is at the time of testing… That’s certainly brought up. So if you need to know anything it’s likely not relevant unless it’s a DNA test. And at 24 months, 6 Years etc etc… of course you can pass… still those same dogs will present with the problems later on.)))
Sengimage: What makes you think he doesn’t require anyone does something with his dogs? == He doesn’t say so. He apparently doesn’t do any of it himself (again, if it’s there, please correct me). As I said, one should lead by example.
(((Did you ever meet his dogs? Or his family. Again ASSuming things is easy when you don’t have the desire to actually discover anything beyond the judgement you’ve already made)))
Sengimage: Or for that matter that he doesn’t have as many of his dogs in Obedience, Therapy and other areas that would meet your approval? ==you are misusing what I said. I don’t CARE what areas he does stuff in. I do care that apparently he doesn’t do ANY. And yes, if one is slamming others for how badly they breed dogs, then one ought to have a better record of breeding good sound healthy (and functional) dogs oneself. If one doesn’t I think the word is “hypocritical”.
(((How do you know he doesn’t do any? And why would you think that records aren’t being kept? If you pass the screening process perhaps you’ll have all the answers you need. The current owners of dogs seem to have nothing but nice things to say. I believe they were even given lineages and veterinary histories. But, they were granted this information once they passed the screenings. After all who gives out information to complete strangers.)))
With as much grief as he gets from the Established PRICKING order why should he make it so easy for them to get answers == that’s non sequitur. His grief (or lack thereof) is not why he should put the information regarding health, etc on his dogs. It’s to indicate what he does/doesn’t consider important. If you consider health important, then you provide health information, regardless of who does or doesn’t like it. If you are going to pan others for their lack of healthy animals but decline to provide information on your own animals, we get back to hypocritical.
(((You’re sounding repetitive Peggy. And really are coming off like the many brainwashed assholes in the dog fancy. I’ll repeat it here. All your years of vast knowledge and experience… has amounted to the shithole all dogs have found themselves in today. Are we supposed to applaud you for a job well done or just reflect on the population you introduced that have lived up to your expectations? Are we supposed to forget about all the other screw ups and listen to your excuses about dogs that were introduced by people such as yourself. Maybe you’re not the status quo Peggy, but you definitely come off as just another follower of a’hole-it is. )))
Semigmage: So passing in a competitive trial sets the baseline for you? ==I think I made it clear that it wasn’t. I said specifically “working ranch dog” for herding, which is not competitive. A dog able to function in a performance venue is a baseline. I’m not that fussy about which venue, although IMO, a hunting dog ought to have some hunting ability, a herding dog ought to be able to do some minimal herding. If one has a flat coat retriever, it ought to be able to retrieve. I don’t really care if it is doing that as “dock dogs”, Frisbee, family gun dog, tests (not all titles are competitive) or trials. A sighthound ought to be able to run.
If all you target for your dogs is what you’ve detailed here…you’re addressing a very small segment of the market that is demanding a better product. I don’t know what you breed, perhaps it has a much better foundation to work with than other breeds in trouble. But your experience doesn’t provide the answers for all.. It’s the solution that works for you.
But, I do think this guy has quite a few dogs doing many of the same things yours do. == If he does, I’m happy to be informed of which dogs those are. And what things those might be. Because again, I couldn’t find it on his website. I’m happy to be corrected, but not just by you saying “it’s there”. The URL, please.
So you require the information that an approved client receives? I guess you’ll just have to remain answerless. Which provides you with about as much information as he knows about you.
Perhaps making an attempt to buy one of his dogs might find you not getting one? Who knows? == not interested in his dogs. They might be grand dogs, for all I know, although I wouldn’t buy a dog without knowing more about the health and capabilities of the dog than are apparent on his website. But I have no current interest in gun dogs.
(((Did your spouse get you tested before he married you? The proof of concept here is… a family following a principal to avoid inbreeding at all costs and to attempt crossing breeds. So the relevant data your looking for is mostly a work in progress. If you go by what has been the results thus far he clearly shares a lot about what his dogs have been diagnosed with and the countermeasures if any that were taken. He also points out how many were produced and how many have come back with issues. You’re coming across like most children under 3 yrs old, who only have selective senses. )))
What tests are relevant for you with F1 crosses? == I think my first post indicated that. For starters, OFA, CERF, the PFK test for those with cocker parents (ancestors) if he didn’t DNA test the original cocker parents/ancestors. Probably some information on longevity in his dogs (or their ancestors) if available. Do any of his dogs hunt (they are all gun dog breeds or crosses thereof). I don’t know if any of the other tests available (heart, thyroid, DNA tests like those offered here http://www.vetgen.com/canine-services.html etc) are applicable to his breeds (and the crosses thereof).
(((There are variants of lots of health issues that are similar, but not the same. And if they are applicable then they might have been done. Again…if he’s not breeding Cockers then the chances of doubling up… not likely. If they both experienced PRA of the same type then perhaps… but again… that’s not applicable. I know the longevity of ancestors is always reviewed with clientele, No one leaves without know full disclosure on this. And yes Peggy we all know that a dog that hunts is a far healthier dog than a dog that fetches. Seriously…are you on crack?)))
Perhaps he does test for some things at a DNA level with his F1b ==then he ought to say so. Silence implies absence.
No actually silence implies nothing except he hasn’t told you anything.
I suppose he would ask you. After all those physical tests what have you prevented in your dogs? == and I’d be happy to refer him to those who have dogs from my line for the answer. Or what I’ve put on my website. And no, I haven’t done any crosses. I know plenty of folk in the herding world who have, however, and have no issue with that as long as it’s done openly.
((( I think you’ve been referred to many of his clients over highly accessible social medium. Where you decided to not go from there is really up to you. But just like you’re saying you can refer him to your clients…he has already done the same for you. )))
And your view on an older dog is valid but still can go as bad as using a younger dog. ==sure. And it is always a calculated gamble with ANY dog until we have the means for entire DNA of each individual dog and can “dial a characteristic” – which I don’t see happening in the immediate future. However one can increase or decrease odds. My comment was that he was saying people felt their older dogs had some advantages over younger ones and yes, in regards to some tests (thyroid being another besides OFA) where immature dogs don’t provide the information that older dogs might.
(((Right. Are you saying this with a poker face on? Or are you ASSuming the discovery of the ancestral lineages has no bearing on these decisions with the absence of DNA baselines? You Peggy really are being an ASSHAT. Which is surprising… most days you have much more relevant BS to post)))
But, then perhaps there were older dogs used to create his own dogs…. Lots of ASSuming going on… I’m sure he knows that if there is a problem with any part of his planning ==– assumptions go both ways. HE’s assuming that his young dogs are as sound as other’s older ones. Maybe they are. But without OFA, CERF, etc, for both animals, how would you know? And you can’t do some tests until the animal is mature. You are assuming regarding fixing a problem with “his planning” “if” it occurs. Well, and so with anyone else, including those he is slamming. Again, lead by example.
I guess all the physical testing in the world will reveal a better longer living dog in the end?
(((I can refer you to some Medical doctors who might listen to your ASSumption here but, I can’t guarantee they won’t laugh their asses off at what you have to say)))
When clearly he doesn’t tell you what to do. ==would seem that “he” is telling others what “he” sees as them doing something wrong. But I don’t see him doing things better. I don’t care about the coat type, coat color or designer dogs. But doing these things doesn’t in and of itself make a line better health wise, function wise or as companions.
(((Again if it’s a proof of concept you require…he’s produced a respectable number of dogs since 2004. Is it early to weigh in completely?… perhaps. But if the statistics have any merit then about 30% of those dogs should have bit the dust already. 60% should have be diagnosed with cancer before the age of 5. 40% should have blown their hips already. And 25% should already be blind. Depending on the statistics you follow. And the breeds in question. So based on what was already shred on his blog and his site there is enough information to know he’s statistically ahead of the curve.)))
Peggy… you have a serious bug up your ass. Take care of that will ya.
You are exactly like the old school breeders when it comes to health testing and minimum age breeding. So much for taking them on.
Oh yes and the results of all the efforts of those old school breeders speak so highly for them.
And why is your sig “dodo” ?
If you can’t answer a question, result to name calling & insults. This disguises the fact that one hasn’t answered the question. Of course no test is going to “guarantee” perfect health. Some diseases (parvo, distemper) have nothing to do with genetics. I really expected better from a Retrieverman blog post
Semimage: (((Right. Are you saying this with a poker face on? Or are you ASSuming the discovery of the ancestral lineages has no bearing on these decisions with the absence of DNA baselines?
==this comes off as gibberish. I am presuming you mean that thyroid testing is irrelevant for certain “ancestral lineages”? You are aware that mutations can occur? You are aware that passing a genetic test is different from passing a “phenotype” test?
Semimage: I guess all the physical testing in the world will reveal a better longer living dog in the end?
==I think that if one does testing it verifies that care has been taken to avoid certain genes that may be present and which can shorten life or affect health. YEP, PRA testing and avoiding breeding for PRA sure does reveal a better dog in the end. Ditto for CEA and probably MDRI although I doubt that any gundog has those gene. PFK, however, occurs in cockers and would be present in F1 offspring if present in the cocker parent
Semimage: he’s produced a respectable number of dogs since 2004.
==quantity doesn’t equal quality. Of that “respectable number” have these dogs passed health tests? Don’t know where you get your %’s from. As you say, it depends on the breeds in question and the stats one follows. I have merely asked for the documentation on his dogs in particular.
Semigmage posted –“is no way to say these test are a guarantee your puppies are not going to get anything. Clearly testing for hips only tells you what the condition is at the time of testing…”
== One can either use pennhip or OFA and either will tell you if the dog is defective. Asserting that unless the test is perfect it isn’t worth doing is in denial of a fair amount of data showing that while not perfect, use of these tests DO reduce defective hips in various breeds. And of course DNA tests will identify a genetic fault, even if it isn’t currently apparent. If the argument you are making is that unless a test is 100% accurate, it isn’t worth doing, then obviously, you have no intent of ever doing any test, any vaccination (these sometimes fail, sometimes have adverse side effects) and don’t live in the real world where pretty much the only certainty is that everything dies, sooner or later.
Semimage posted: “And at 24 months, 6 Years etc etc… of course you can pass… still those same dogs will present with the problems later on.
==nope. Statistically, the tests are reasonably accurate. And certainly they will identify if the hips are bad at 24 months. CERF does require annual tests because things do change – which is why one would have CERF exams periodically through a dog’s life. Failing to do any eye exams omits catching things like PRA, CEA, and a host of other defects.
Semimage posted: “Did you ever meet his dogs? Or his family”
==what’s that got to do with anything? There is a public blog and a public website. One presumes that the information that is put there is meant for the public to have. Stuff that isn’t there is apparently not information felt to be relevant. I’m responding to Retrieverman’s blog post extolling this blog and by connection, the website and breeding program of this individual. I find that both do a lot of slamming of others without providing an iota of evidence that the breeding program deserves any such accolades. It’s true that the site doesn’t extol the breeding of obviously defective dogs, but neither does it provide an iota of information regarding breeding for anything better. The dogs could all have cancer at 4 for what one can tell from the website. They could all be gunshy, fearbiters and hyperactive. One would think that if an individual is going to slam the practices of those involved in AKC, then something better would be offered.
Semimage posted: If you pass the screening process perhaps you’ll have all the answers you need.
== so one needs the super secret handshake to have information that really should be open access? Or maybe only those who don’t ask for such information “pass the screening process”?
Semimage posted: All your years of vast knowledge and experience… has amounted to the shithole all dogs have found themselves in today.
== so knowledge and experience are ‘bad”? And providing information is “bad”? Simply asserting that one is “better” is sufficient? (Don’t look behind the curtain Dorothy! I am the great wizard of OZ!) Humbug.
Semimage posted: Which provides you with about as much information as he knows about you.
== only if he doesn’t look, but I’m not the one being presented as a paragon of virtue. Plenty of websites by breeders have up front information. This includes those doing cross breeding. If one is asserting breeders creating “holes” then one of the causes is lack of health information.
Semimage: And yes Peggy we all know that a dog that hunts is a far healthier dog than a dog that fetches. Seriously…are you on crack?)))
==since that’s not what I said, no. A dog that hunts demonstrates better that it is capable of hunting than one that doesn’t. It’s data regarding if the dog is functional for it’s intended purpose. Lots of cars look good until you start up the engine and take it for a test drive. And by the way, most employers do a background check before hiring. And most folk would do better at buying dogs if they did a background check on the dogs /puppies they were purchasing. There would be less garbage being presented as a YUGO if folk were a bit more discriminating, instead of buying off on whatever the snake oil salesman has to say without questioning it.
++If you can’t answer a question, result to name calling & insults. This disguises the fact that one hasn’t answered the question. Of course no test is going to “guarantee” perfect health. Some diseases (parvo, distemper) have nothing to do with genetics. I really expected better from a Retrieverman blog post++
Nope you can’t seem to find your answers so you keep repeating yourself. I test this with a 10 year old. Yup they seem to be able to gleen all the right info reading the same thing you had an opportunity to read. so its more of a comparison. You’re about as logical as a stubborn kid.
++==this comes off as gibberish. I am presuming you mean that thyroid testing is irrelevant for certain “ancestral lineages”? You are aware that mutations can occur? You are aware that passing a genetic test is different from passing a “phenotype” test? ++
does not apply here… are your dogs experiencing seizures? please find another test that’s relevant. I give you credit…at least you’re one of the first not hung up on the “phenotype” tests.
++I think that if one does testing it verifies that care has been taken to avoid certain genes that may be present and which can shorten life or affect health. YEP, PRA testing and avoiding breeding for PRA sure does reveal a better dog in the end. Ditto for CEA and probably MDRI although I doubt that any gundog has those gene. PFK, however, occurs in cockers and would be present in F1 offspring if present in the cocker parent++
Oh you think? Thank you for your opinion. Breeding away from double recessives? PRA tests are a physical test. They confirm that you either have it or don’t. They are not predictive tests to tell you when your dog will get it. Unless you’re clairvoyant. You should possibly just worry about your own dogs. Mine are doing fine.
++==quantity doesn’t equal quality. Of that “respectable number” have these dogs passed health tests? Don’t know where you get your %’s from. As you say, it depends on the breeds in question and the stats one follows. I have merely asked for the documentation on his dogs in particular. ++
Perhaps you should just go through the process of purchasing one of his dogs. Maybe you’ll have all your questions answered. The quality of my dogs is very exceptional but, of course I’m biased since they’re mine. I wouldn’t expect you to admit your dogs suck either. BTW the source for the statistics were made available for several breeds by the KC. Mine were on that list. Again…I’m ahead of the curve.
++website. One presumes that the information that is put there is meant for the public to have. Stuff that isn’t there is apparently not information felt to be relevant. I’m responding to Retrieverman’s blog post extolling this blog and by connection, the website and breeding program of this individual. I find that both do a lot of slamming of others without providing an iota of evidence that the breeding program deserves any such accolades. It’s true that the site doesn’t extol the breeding of obviously defective dogs, but neither does it provide an iota of information regarding breeding for anything better. The dogs could all have cancer at 4 for what one can tell from the website. They could all be gunshy, fearbiters and hyperactive. One would think that if an individual is going to slam the practices of those involved in AKC, then something better would be offered.++
Again, if you’re so curious… you should ask his customers. They’re all on a common social networking platform. You can look it up. Try it , its easy. If the current state of dogs is any indication of these veteran breeders programs then for most, based off the high rates of disorders and cancer. You could say that the past several decades have been an example in a catastrophic man made failure. You either buy into it or walk a different path. The same holds true for your breeding program. Wait it out..in a few years we can compare notes.
++Semimage posted: If you pass the screening process perhaps you’ll have all the answers you need.
== so one needs the super secret handshake to have information that really should be open access? Or maybe only those who don’t ask for such information “pass the screening process”? ++
No its more about not wasting my time with elitist assholes trying to bolster their own egos by contacting me and trying to show how responsible they are by promoting this test and that test for their own dogs, But still can’t give an answer for why their dogs still die after all these tests. I should know… I receive the phone calls and the e-mails from their clients crying about the deaths of these dogs. And you know what… all the parents of their dogs were tested. But somehow all those tests didn’t amount to much, except an upset and disappointed owner coming to me for a new dog. Perhaps it doesn’t apply to your breed. But if you can’t be bothered, then its time I don’t have to waste entertaining you. I’ll work with the people who do have the time to make that secret handshake. ;-)
++Semimage posted: All your years of vast knowledge and experience… has amounted to the shithole all dogs have found themselves in today.
== so knowledge and experience are ‘bad”? And providing information is “bad”? Simply asserting that one is “better” is sufficient? (Don’t look behind the curtain Dorothy! I am the great wizard of OZ!) Humbug. ++
perhaps you need to read that again. “All your years of vast knowledge and experience… has amounted to the shithole all dogs have found themselves in today.”… Uh huh got that. Oh BTW…information is awesome. you can also choose who to share it with. As I’ve learned …whether you share it or not… some people still choose to be jerks because you’re not doing things according to the status quo. You know according to the people who f’d things up in the first place.
++Semimage: And yes Peggy we all know that a dog that hunts is a far healthier dog than a dog that fetches. Seriously…are you on crack?)))
==since that’s not what I said, no. A dog that hunts demonstrates better that it is capable of hunting than one that doesn’t. It’s data regarding if the dog is functional for it’s intended purpose. Lots of cars look good until you start up the engine and take it for a test drive. And by the way, most employers do a background check before hiring. And most folk would do better at buying dogs if they did a background check on the dogs /puppies they were purchasing. There would be less garbage being presented as a YUGO if folk were a bit more discriminating, instead of buying off on whatever the snake oil salesman has to say without questioning it.++
Okay Peggy… Now you are definitely deserving of being called an Asshat. We live in modern times. Dogs are not necessary for hunting. Unless you live in the backwoods and require a dog for hunting. So if your measure of a dog is based on hunting ability then you are a VERY small segment of the market looking for a dog. You should just limit your searches to a specialist and really stop trying to tout yourself as a relevant source for information on what a dog needs in order to demonstrate how capable it is. If more breeders did proper background checks there would be less dogs in shelters.
Yes..I have Dogs that are certified Therapy Dogs. 4h obedience dogs, and CGC dogs. Do I really need to share this with you when you are really not interested and not my client and have no relationship with me. I think not. I also have facilities for Obedience training and Rally training that would likely make you drool. But, would I let your ignorant self in those facilities?….Likely not. You would never pass a screening. My 5 yr old kid would likely fail you. My clients dogs hunt, are properly socialized and are by no means gun shy. Scottie helped me sort that out a while back. You on the other hand have lived up to all the BS that gets slung around by the dog fancy.
Like I said, if this bothers you so much and you can’t get enough info off of my blog or site you’re welcome to speak to my clients. They’re apparently a lot more accessible than yours.
Semimage — “we live in modern times” — which of course is why one cannot apparently bother to put the relevant health check and other information in a website that offers dogs for sale to the public? as for hunting, etc, I suspect that there are more dogs hunting NOW than there were in the Victorian age if only as sport dogs and the family gun dog. In Victorian times, the number was limited to those owned by the wealthy. And of course, we certainly don’t need search & rescue dogs, or biological search dogs, drug search dogs, bomb detection dogs or any of those other types of application of a dog with a good scenting capabilty and desire to “hunt” –must be why the various government agencies use them so much, right? I mentioned other venues like agility etc and you’ve ignored them. I asked you for a url, and your response has been to be insulting. So I pretty much conclude that you in fact HAVEN’T done anything except show your dogs in conformation a few times — you DID bother to put photos of a class win on your website. Apparently that was more important.
BTW, PRA? see http://www.healthgene.com/canine-dna-testing/price-list-for-canine-dna-tests/ It’s listed as genetic test # C104. So there are genetic tests. maybe if you bothered to get your dogs checked with CERF you could help develop one for Flat coats, Weimeraners and Cockers. You still havent answered for PFK. That’s test C106 on that site.
From your responses, you resort to flinging insults at those who disagree with you or who question you. You don’t answer the questions. So I conclude that you can’t.
Semimage: “I also have facilities for Obedience training and Rally training that would likely make you drool. But, would I let your ignorant self in those facilities”
== goodie for you. What kind of facilities does one need? Pretty much all the obedience & Rally training I’ve seen have been held outdoors. All you need are the jumps for obedience and the signs, etc for rally. no big deal. I’ve seen it done quite well using a parking lot. fancy facilities don’t mean anything except that you have money.
Ehhh. Peggy You tellin yourself these stories to make yourself feel better at night? Now you’re likening your self to the elitist class of gentleman’s hunting society. So now you’re a gentlemanly hunter with a proud hunting canine by your side looking for game everyday. And you along with millions of others like yourself require a hunting dog because that’s a true measure of a dog. Really? You’re coming off like a tard. You have my URL. my blog and access to all my clientele. Do with it what you want.
If there were a genetic screen for PRA my dogs would be first in line. For the moment there are none.
And you do know you’re putting your foot in your mouth by assuming things again right. You never know if the one day when your dogs get smoked in agility it may have been one of mine that cooked it. Again… i do have these facilities for a reason. And 5 kids with a love for some activity just dying to have some fun. So you never know Peggy.
And yes… I have money. ooodles and ooodles of money. And really have no need to make a living off the backs of my dogs. Therefore I don’t breed to meet a demand on quantity. I do breed for a demand of quality. Again you may question the clientele. or Join them. But being that information can be a hot mess either way and what I do for a living actually deals with such matters daily….volunteering this information is with people who meet our criteria and pass our screening. very simple concept.
Speaking of which… the mere simplicity is what most like yourself can’t fathom. Its bothers only the dog fancy peeps. Not the public looking for a companion. They are willing to jump through hoops and lie to get your dogs. I just make sure I know who I’m dealing with beforehand. And plenty of times… the control freaks are the ones that wig out over having to be screened prior to any information being shared. So for them.. they have choices like buying one of your dogs. Perhaps you might even get to know them first. Or realize the big mistake when suddenly one of your dogs is in a shelter.
Right now for the Weims its a DNA test for Hemophilia. But i’m sure you actually read that on my blog…Oh I forgot your sight is selective too.
Cheers.
I asked for the URL since I didn’t find it on the blog or website. I even asked politely. you can’t apparently provide it and keep referring back to some secret handshake I’m supposed to do to find it. Or read thru umpteen posts and lines on a blog I didn’t find particularly enlightening, entertaining or useful. I asked a simple question — couldn’t find the health, etc information and if it’s there, what’s the URL. It’s you who have resulted to flinging insults. You sound like terrierman. Or frankly, like a 5 year old having a temper tantrum.
I never likened myself to gentlemen hunters. However I do happen to know plenty of gentlemen (and lady) hunters. It’s a popular sport in my area. They are happy to have a good gun dog to hunt with when going after birds. As for being “smoked in agility”, I don’t do agility. People who obtain dogs from me have done agility. You’re welcome to try and beat them. Most of them do more than one sport with their dog, so after you have done the agility, feel free to try and compete with search/rescue or tracking or yep, moving livestock. You are welcome to come out and work cattle sometime. Or 120+ head sheep with one dog. Haven’t had any dog of my breeding in a shelter. I don’t breed often enough to have lost any either. and I do not make a point of slamming other breeders with what all they do wrong without “putting my money where my mouth is”. Retrieverman posted about you and invited comment. But apparently the only comment desired was from sycophants.
If you have the health information, etc, once again, please provide the URL. No, I have no desire to go thru umpteen blog posts to find it. I did look at the several most recent posts and didn’t see it there and I did check your website and didn’t see it there either.
I’d say whatever you want to know isn’t relevant to your ideals for a dog. Neither do you meet our criteria for anyone we would sell a dog to. So it seems a waste of your time and mine.
So sadly… you’ll just need to go by what is out there and/or actually converse with our clientele. Try to focus on the ones who hunt if that floats your boat or perhaps ask for the ones who are veterinarians if that’s your cup of tea. Maybe even the therapy dog owners or how about the ones with special needs children. Although we have clientele across all industries and walks of life.
Here’s what we ask for.
Your full name (not a pen name or an alias)
Your place of employment( for the past 10 years)
Your Physical address (for the past 3 years)
Your landline Phone number (not a cell phone)
Your Veterinary reference ( for all your previous dogs)
Your personal reference (with a number and an address)
I’ll put the way another breeder we both know puts it.
“I have my own ideals for what I like in my dogs, if you don’t like it then feel free to look elsewhere.”
Shaking hands is really not so difficult ehh.
BTW Peggy… my blog started end of January this year. with three long posts. Not much to sort through really.
Yup…in fact I just had a 10 year old read it again, then had a 65 year old review it….They both found it informative enough to make a call or ask our references for more info. And knew our stance on testing how we use the testing to set our baselines and when we use the testing just from reading.
So..how’re those selective senses working today for ya?
Blog 1: The status quo of the inner circles – dissertation that includes complaining about limited registration and arguing that OFA & CERF are meaningless. No information provided on the dogs you have.
Blog 2: “moral compass” : talks about a “balanced breeder”, etc. has the following “between making another champion and obtaining as much money for the resulting Stud services, Brood services and the Puppies from their Champions. And they make it a point to differentiate themselves from others by touting physical tests, trophies and bloodlines. And hardly mention a thing about the resulting health of their lines” Includes the statement that “We plan to take our first venture into the rally competitions this year”. Talks about PRA and states AKC doesn’t recommend, etc – but again, no data on your dogs and, for that matter, doesn’t mention that AKC does now include CERF and OFA information on the certificates. Nor their push on breeders following the “CHIC” programs established by the breed clubs (I agree the CHIC criteria is pretty minimal, but it is a start and you don’t mention it). NOTHING on your dogs.
Now I admit I didn’t go past this because I’d already wasted time going thru several pages of diatribe without seeing that “YOU” were doing anything better. I checked your website. Nothing there either.
So checking on even earlier posts: “Innovation:” Includes the comment; “What about the people that compete in hunt trials and dog shows? Well okay, it seems like something worthwhile to do in order to maintain the working function or an excellent visual representation of the breeds in question” Also the comment “ The buyers sign away their privileges of full ownership so the breeder can keep control over when that stud or bitch can be bred and to whom it can be bred” — I wouldn’t know if this is typical in gun dog competition. It isn’t in other venues. Includes the statement “yes we’ve bought dogs that were tested and puppies whose parents were tested. And we’ve had dogs we’ve produced tested when we felt it was necessary to understand what was going on when a dog came up lame” But no information provided there on what results were. You do point out that OFA/CERF disclosure is voluntary. Yep. Have you volunteered?
You also state: “We can say we’ve produced over 110 dogs and none have turned up with cancer….none are blind and only one, a purebred, turned up lame and it was quickly corrected. None of our hybrids have had any congenital hereditary health issues.” But provide no information on that. And by the way, 8 years isn’t long enough to verify there are no congenital hereditary health issues in your dogs.
So fine, you could use a 10 year old to find the data. URL PLEASE. Or otherwise, frankly, I don’t believe you are speaking the truth. You are just making unsubstantuated statements while dissing what any competitor might or might not be doing.
It isn’t a question of what “I” do or don’t do (but you can find me using Google. I’m not that invisible and I don’t use a nom de plume). The issue is that you spent a fair amount of time saying what others and yet don’t provide any serious data on following any of those 110 dogs. So again, URL please. If you’ve OFA’d and opted for open access, then it should be easy to provide the dog’s names. Since I’ve repeatedly asked and you’ve repeatedly declined to provide the URL or information, I can only conclude that it’s like “cold fusion”. it’s just snake oil salesmanship.
I’ll put the way another breeder we both know puts it.
“I have my own ideals for what I like in my dogs, if you don’t like it then feel free to look elsewhere.”
Shaking hands is really not so difficult ehh.
Pardon me. I’m convinced that dogs are going extinct. And dog breeders, too. To claim the right to breed, you have to be special in some respect. This guy buys that idea and his claim to specialness is that he settles on a ranch and spins an elaborate system of ethics. He also lets me, the potential customer, know he’ll track me down, right to my lair, where I’m – doing what, do you suppose?
At bottom all he’s doing is breeding, x-breeding a bunch of dogs.
Around here, when we want a nice, nominally healthy dog that might last 10 years (no guarantee about any of them) we buy a nice ghetto bred pit bull. This dog is just a few generations away from dogs bred strictly for performance, although not for longevity, particularly. It may have inherent defects. But if it’s just a pet dog you want, why buy a mongrel from a ranch in the sky where the kids are a “gang” and mom packs a gun? The hostile ranch breeder will track you down. Your polite ghetto breeder will deliver the pup right to your door.
Kathy, All dogs were once mongrels. If you burn your AKC papers… you just have another mongrel..
BUT
you either have one where the genetic deck was reshuffled and the odds of double recessives occurring is a lot less likely
OR
You have one that has been dealt from the same deck thats been using the same cards for decades.
The pet market actually drives the demand for dogs. That said, a pet owner that does their homework will care that their dog is going to be as healthy as it can be for as long as it should be.
An elitist person with more money than brains only cares about status of ownership, if it looks like the picture in the breed description and where to get it.
I am fascinated in principle by what Sengimage does, but for years, he has come off as self-aggrandizing and whiny in his defensiveness.
I asked him years ago why he chose show-bred American cockers, as opposed to working cockers (usually English). The response was laughable. There is nothing wrong with using the ingredients you have lying around the kitchen, but it it’s apparent when you are winging it, and pretending that was the plan all along.
Why is that response laughable?
What IS wrong with using the ingredients lying around the kitchen if they are good ingredients?
Kary
In my opinion (just a guy who likes bird dogs), nothing is cooler than a cross-breed dog, put toghether with some forethought, doing some type of work really well.
On the other hand, nothing is lamer than carelessly coming up with a cross-breed (both in terms of breeds and individual animals), marketing the hell out of it, and then making up the rationale for the breeding after the fact.
Yes, the dog fancy and trial retriever world has no room to criticize him, but there are a lot of people out there doing almost exacly what he is doing, only with more purpose and care, and less defensive rambling.
Who says American Cockers Aren’t good bird dogs. I know breeders that use them for that purpose. They are a gamey dog. and if you shave down the heavier coated examples they make for a dog with the same form and drive as an English Cocker or a Springer, Which Bill of all people you should know they are from the same history. And even when you further break it down and simplify it…the same breed.
It’s laughable because they aren’t good ingredients. American Cockers are a genetic mess in themselves. I don’t understand how he believes that crossing the FCR with a breed with an enormous amount of health and temperamental problems is doing the FCR or the cross any favors. English Cockers are a much healthier breed (especially those bred in America) with better working conformation. Even the working type English Cocker, which usually aren’t thoroughly health tested prior to breeding are still far healthier and temperamentally sounder dogs than any pet bred (or even show bred) American Cocker Spaniel you can find today.
Find any breed that is not a genetic mess. Share that with us here. And I’ll likely use it to create another hybrid.
kym, you make a broad sweeping statement about American Cockers that shows little thought. It is a crap statement to throw a full breed under the bus.
SOME American Cockers are a genetic mess. SOME are not. I know EXCELLENT pet bred American Cockers. My neighbor and friend has a 13 year old that has been healthy and is a wonderful dog all around. An EXCELLENT pet.
Breeders in the know can source these dogs.
Yes, one dog in your experience that has lived a healthy life isn’t a broad sweeping opinion of a breed at all…
MOST American Cockers are a genetic mess. Many “well-bred” American Cockers that are successful in the conformation ring are prone to skin and eye issues. It’s generally accepted as something that comes with the breed even among the most respected of breeders. MOST pet bred American Cockers you find in pet homes or rescues are generally not the healthiest of dogs. When MOST dogs of the breed aren’t healthy and can’t even perform the job they’re supposed to, then I will stand by my opinion that MOST American Cockers are a genetic mess and are FAR MORE of a mess than English Cockers.
Pet American Cockers are about as mixed a bag of genetics and breeding as Pet Field Spaniels, English Cockers, Springers. American water, Irish Water, And even Boykins now that they are in a closed registry, etc etc etc. But none of the pet lines are as heavily researched for close line breeding and inbreeding as their show cousins. And after having witnessed some of the examples of show spaniels…. they might look good in that ring…but many are a potential mess of vet bills. And some consumers wouldn’t like a dog with many of their line bred inherited problems.
As a Show Spaniel judge told me at one of the conformation events…. the advantage to having a heavy full coat is the ability to actually hide many of the flaws that the “show” bred dogs actually have. And if they were all clipped down … most would be DQ’d or reveal poor examples of their breed. Of course that’s a professional Judge’s opinion and I’ve learned they are all flakey, too. Many who are less snobbish or pretentious tend to exhibit mild forms of OCD. So as far as judges go, its apparent that some pretty lousy examples of humans are actually making these calls…and that is mostly laughable. When you look at the show circles and 9 out of 10 judges are fat obese slobs with a gimp hiding their imperfections in a suit or a dress. That’s laughable, too.
Typically if a “show” breeder tends to find something admirable in their “show” bred dog that they love about the head or the gait or some other characteristic…and that example is potentially a severe genetic mess based on its lineage and history of breeding… the breeders know enough to use a mate that is less of a mess or doesn’t have a history like the example they prefer… thus they take a gamble that the negative traits will not double up…but in fact they produce several more potential carriers of the messy genetics … kym. Then they take their pick of this litter for their “show” aspirations and discard the rest to the public looking for a wonderfully bred dog. Again laughable. And that’s only accounting for the ones that actually know enough about doubling up on recessives. Many don’t give a damn.
There are a lot more pet breeders than show breeders. If there is a problem health-wise with one of their dogs they typically retire it, since its not about maintaining another potential producer of ribbon winning lines, and it helps to avoid the mess of upset buyers of a potential mess in the future. They don’t pay attention to championship lineages. They typically are interested in a nice temperament and a cute personality. They want a dog that actually is a part of their life for a long long time. And they talk among their circles with other like minded people with very unrelated dogs that also exhibit the same personalities. And typically live longer than average lives. Where as show breeders and their circle of friends tend to have dogs from the same stud lines of champions and in fact continue to maintain a diminished and depleted genetic diversity within their circle of peeps. The fact that there are more of pet breeders… provides a lot more diversity in the pet population than in the show dog “LINES”. So it will not be a surprise that in order to save the asses of many “show” bred dogs the OLD SCHOOL might have to look at the pool of pet stock for the fix, and that’s only if they are still too stubborn to consider outcrossing with a different breed.
So Kym… as for sweeping opinions…Kary is actually more spot on than you. Considering she is likely also an example of the demographic that actually drives the market for more dogs. And as a Consumer looking for the biggest return on their investment even when purchasing a dog…It is in our moderns times a better chance of getting that return from buying a dog from pet breeding stock than from show breeding stock. The odds are stacked favorably so.
You guys really haven’t got a clue as to what goes on behind the scenes. Whether we’ve made decisions based on what we’ve experienced to alter plans or eliminate an entire line based on existing health issues. Or have been participating in research, and keeping up on our own puppies progress. Its all relative to who we deal with and who we know.
I can’t satisfy all the curious who come to me, not even trying to. But, when I share experiences as seen through my family’s own eyes and how we’ve had to deal with things through our blog, We get a lot of the same crap seen here from basically the same type of people. Dog people, used to doing things their way for any given amount of years, touting decades if not generations of experience mucking things up. The blogosphere is an open invitation to report on our experiences. It’s not a slam on everyone out there, it mainly pertains to the people we’ve had to deal with. So if any of you find some things to relate with about my family being treated in a certain way by some really disturbed people and you feel I’ve labeled you, then I only ask why you would feel so guilty. And enough so, to call me whining and rambling. When many readers have called me spot on with my assessment.
So, when I share that we’ve been threatened and attacked and attempts to do harm to us from some possibly mentally unstable people… there’s a valid reason for us to lobby the curious for first disclosure. And if you feel thats. rambling and whining thats your opinion. There are many who reach out with positive and encouraging feedback. So as for knowing who you are first. No exceptions. We only deal with other breeders who have built a relationship with us and have taken the time to know us. As for the manner which many of you approach us… with this air about you… like you have some sense of entitlement to know everything prior. We’re the ones looking for proper homes, from our perspective its the inquiring minds that have something to prove to us first. No exceptions. And when you sit down in front of us for an interview and again for a puppy pickup party, you get a lot more than full disclosure on everything about our dogs.
If you think that after having shared our experience about disturbed individuals with a chip on their shoulders is really an exaggeration and whining then you’re likely the type of person we don’t want to deal with anyway.
If you feel that as a breeder, that caring about the puppies should end with the day the puppies leave us then you have an ideology conflict with how we do things. And the best cure for your problem is simply to go elsewhere. If you feel that our need to know who you are and where you live and who’s your vet is too much to share then we understand. You can also go elsewhere because our conversation would be over at that point. Am I whining again? Or just Keeping it real?
Problems in American Cocker Spaniels? Problems in FCR? You really have to stop thinking so short sighted before you close the book on any assumptions on what we’re doing. There are other breeds to add to the mix. And no matter how any of you spin it… Every breed has issues. Our mix is a good sign we’re doing okay by our dogs. When there’s a problem… I’m sure the people who need to know…will know. If I don’t know you, then you can just..suck it.. real simple.
If you can’t deal with that and suddenly find you’re stamping your feet and making a really big stink that you can’t get disclosure your way. When really the proof is in the resulting puppies and the current base of owners. Then you have nothing to bother us about. Just take note our laboratory and our data is still….growing, we’re new at this, but certainly capable and have the resources and the time to keep shuffling our deck. And based on all the whining I read from the peeps here…. seems like you all have issues that are really based off of hearsay and the imagination.
And you don’t come off like your shit doesn’t stink? Come on Bill, you’ve been in the hot seat plenty of times and I still like you.
So out of all the 10 or so major spaniel breeds, what makes the ACS the best breed for your foundation stock? And out of all the retriever breeds, what makes the FCR the best breed for your foundation stock.
I assume, like my dinner tonight, it’s what you had on hand.
I have several Breeds on hand Bill. You should know this already. The FCR and the Cocker Spaniels are two of them. If I could find a Tweed Water Spaniel perhaps I would have used one of them? But, alas….they are extinct. Irish Water Spaniels are heavy shedders and American Water Spaniels have an odor about them. English Cockers…. I had those too, But retired them. And even A Boykin Spaniel. Again the Boykin started out looking like an American Cocker with sparse coat, its phenotype has shifted in a matter of 6 years. So… in terms of proportion the American cockers , English Cockers and Springers tend to have the same proportions as an FCR albeit in a smaller package. So it wouldn’t be like crossing an FCR to a Corgi or a Daschund or even a spaniel like a Clumbers OMG, since the results wouldn’t be of the same proportion. Short legged retrievers might not catch on.
And Again, what you ultimately do with the result is really up to you. We have in the world today Hunting Dogs, Therapy Dogs, Disability Assistance Dogs, Obedience Dogs and even a surf boarding dog. Mostly we have family dogs. That’s our audience. The “Bill’s” of this world are such a small segment of the world why bother satisfying the need for a dog with working ability and hunting prowess? You are a very small part of the demand for dogs. But, soccer moms and their families seem to want something more.
Do I breed crappy dogs? Well according to someone looking for the hunting bird dogs like yourself, maybe. But we dog have clients birding with these hybrids. And guess what… maybe they have the ones with Cocker in them. ;-)
And don’t get stuck on Spaniels Bill. since for years as you should know already… I have a couple of options outside of just spaniels. The Spaniels are good for shrinking the size while maintaining proportionate dimension. And when it comes to size a smaller retriever , not a Duck Toller, seems to sell itself. (Tollers are an inbred Mess, so like you said already there has to be some thought behind the ingredients)
And…what do you care what ingredients are in my kitchen… you ain’t buying one of my dogs anyway. Go make your own….then come back and compare note with me in a few generations. Until then, the smoke yer blowin kinda stinks of ignorance.
Cool. Good luck. Hope to see one of your dogs in the neighborhood someday. They are cute, and sound like friendly, healthy pets.
“Your place of employment( for the past 10 years)”
Can anyone explain to me why this would be at all relevant?
It definitely shows
1. you can afford to care for a dog that can likely be 10 to 15 years of your life
2. You have a stable job or career and that you can provide for the care of a dog
3. That if you actually care to share that you are gainfully employed then the chances are you actually have a job that doesn’t involve breeding dogs
All of which can change tomorrow. The only thing that employment history shows is that you have been employed. Period.
Employment history has absolutely nothing to do with one’s ability to be a good dog owner. There is no chance in hell I would ever give that amount of information to someone I am buying a dog from. And I’m surprised that anyone would.
They do. And sorry but employment history can establish a record of complacency or excellence. Or habitual job loss due to??? In which case I would still question why? And if holding a job is a problem then why buy a dog? With the rapport we keep…its just common cordial conversation to know how any client is doing. When they get a promotion, change locations, move to a new state, etc etc. And in order to track our pups and their progress. Its our responsibility to know this.
So, again… you have a choice. If you don’t like our screening. Go someplace that doesn’t care. Like most pet stores.
BTW. You are required to give more information than this when buying a car…which gets either traded in or sold within an average of 3 to 4 years. Or if you can’t pay for it…it gets repossessed and sold to someone who can afford it.
And if you can’t afford your rent you get evicted.
Can’t afford your house you get foreclosed
If you can’t afford our dog… we gladly take it back until you’re back on your feet again… or we rehome it to someone who will care for it.
Considering your comment here…its likely your “type” would never get one of our pups. Much less pass our screening process.
Where the hell do you live that you have to give that information when buying a car? I’ve only bought two in my live, granted, but the only thing I had to give them (one a private seller, one a dealership) was money. That’s it.
And the breeder I bought my one dog from will also gladly take him back if and when – all without requesting the information you do.
And, oh, gotta LOVE the “pet store” dig. Yep. Seriously – someone doesn’t agree with your screening methods, so they obviously are the type to get a dog from a pet store, right?
Its called credit. usually applies when you’re financing. And there’s no where in the USA where you can buy a brand new car anymore without providing a credit check… even with cash in hand.
Welcome to the modern world.
Again read my last response right before your question of why to provide a job reference. So I don’t have to repeat myself.
And yes.. most people who don’t like my screening will likely buy from a pet store, because even most shelters provide the same screening… or even inspect your home. There is reference on this blog as to why. Perhaps Scottie can provide a link to it so I again don’t have to repeat myself.
So yes..again welcome to the times
You go should hang out with Peggy Richter. She only needs to see a checkbook apparently.
And she has a vested interest in remaining the way she is… she is an AKC judge. YAWN. You on the other hand are a very naive consumer who’s abit behind the times.
Good thing I don’t live in the US then. Because running a credit check on someone who is paying cash is a little insane, no? And why would anyone give approval for an unnecessary credit check? Hell, the only debt I have is my mortgage, and even that didn’t require a ten year employment history!
As for not liking your screening, therefore buying from a pet store: apparently I missed the memo where you are the only breeder left on the continent?
I’ve managed to get two dogs, one from a breeder, one from a shelter, without providing any history beyond my current employer. Since I’ve read your list, I’ve been asking different dog people, and they all have the same story: current employment, yes, 10 years worth? Not one person has been asked to provide that.
And sweetheart, let me give you some advice: if you cannot make your argument without resorting to personal attacks, then there is either something wrong with that argument, or with you.
Well, I live in the USA, and in my free country… I’m allowed to screen interested parties.
So I will limit the possibility of my dogs winding up in a shelter.
In this country you likely would get a dog…Just not from me or a shelter. Peggy might sell you one though…
They aren’t personal attacks
Silly to take offense in any statement when the very offense you take is the thing that validates it
I’m making a statement where the only people who should take offense are the ones who raise their hands.
Clueless, ignorant, asshat, full of themselves… Not personal attacks?
Yes, actually, they are. You know they are, I know they are, anyone else reading this knows they are.
Once again, if your argument cannot stand on it’s own merits, then you have a problem. And trying to deflect questions through personal attacks is VERY transparent.
And so, I’m done. If you cannot discuss one of your requirements in a rational and polite manner, then how the hell do you expect to convince people any of your other ideas is valid?
So you raised your hand?
Oh, forgot to ask: I’m so curious as to what my “type” is.
Gee, university graduate, science-type with multiple publications and one patent, home owner, gardener, home renovator (from building walls to installing doors and windows to drywall to shingling to siding to tiling and everything in between), decent cook, well-read, and nice (although I don’t think you are the type to see the benefit in that). I’ve been supporting myself since I was 18 (including paying my own way through school), and have never been unable to pay a bill.
Yep, horrible dog owner material, simply because I resent your attempt to invade my privacy.
Yes most people who are so full of themselves are horrible dog owners.
Nice…won’t mean correct. You can be nice and still be an Asshat.
On the other hand we’ve turned down people from all walks of life…so you shouldn’t feel left out.
Let me apologize and try to elaborate….
in my reference
type = ignorant
You are not ignorant. You are clueless. That’s different and still wouldn’t pass my screening.
I’m clueless because I don’t agree with one of your screening points.
Gotcha.
Good to know.
You apparently don’t agree with the majority of the US shelter systems either. So yes clueless is a good assessment. But you are not ignorant.
No, clueless would be me having an opinion on a shelter system that I’ve never used. Oddly enough though, I was always under the impression there is no one shelter system in the US, and that each shelter has it’s own requirements for adoption. Clueless me!!
Most if not all are stricter than me. Because in the end they want to avoid dogs returning to the system. Perhaps your country has something to learn from that. So yes…I still maintain that clueless is the best assessment. But also foreign since granted you are not from my country.
Um, my country has a better control on the number of homeless dogs that yours does. In fact, my local shelter routinely imports dogs from your country to be adopted out here. Nice try though!
The importing of dogs into the US shelter systems is also pretty common. Yes. Your country does have better control… So I’m guessing as an example they don’t require you’re employed to own a dog?
Did you miss the point I made, more than once, that in my experience, and that of those I have asked (even those that live in the USA), the requirement is limited to current employer?
And if they’ve had no job..then what? If I ask for a history of employment and you refuse… then what? If you wish to own a dog and have no wish to meet the request of anyone asking for something then what. You initial point was…why is it relevant. Apparently you’ve answered your own question and even found people in your country and mine who concur. Great job.
No, you’ve missed my point: why 10 years.
I haven’t had to provide that much information to buy a house, a car, or a dog. Not on any credit application, apartment rental agreement, nothing. I haven’t had to provide that much information on anything other than a job application, and for me, that length of time just encompasses my last two jobs, which would be on the application regardless.
Current employer, yes. Previous employer if less than a certain amount of time (generally two years, IME), yes. Ten years? No, not ever, for nothing.
And KB, in a world with choice we would both have the choices as follows…
You can choose to go elsewhere
And I can choose to so no to anyone like you.
Its really simple. When the demand is favoring what I have….I can afford to be a bit more critical. So far the formula has not let me down.
I don’t have a problem with the employment history requirement. He’s free to sell or not sell dogs to anyone he likes. It’s not different than saying “you can’t have one of my dogs if you intend to breed it.”
I actually would encourage breeding if a puppy owner is interested in their future….since we do don’t enforce any spay neuter policy…its voluntary. Just depends on where it can benefit maintaining diversity within our road map.
I have to say I would have picked another breed like the feild spaniels or even just a straight up cocker to cross to get the smaller retriever that still has work ethic & drive. I personally find the american cockers lacking when it comes to work drive & ethic plus their health is dodgy at best but thats just imho.
I tend to do even more genetic testing than usual when it comes to producing cross breeds & F1′s & so on but I do admitt i still have plenty to learn about which tests are really needed & which are only backing up what I already know from knowing the bloodlines & genetic health behind the dogs & thier offspring that I’m thinking of using or have used.
Field spaniels, Cockers Spaniels and Springer Spaniels all have a shared history. In fact the dogs used to be sorted out by type from the same litters. Cockers can throw pups that still look like Springers, or Field Spaniels. And Springers can throw pups that look Cocker or Field in type and Field Spaniels can still throw pups that look Cocker or Springer.
Likewise FCR and Goldens have a Shared History. Pups from FCR can look very similar to Goldens and if you Look at Goldens they can look very much like a yellow FCR. They also were sorted from the same litters in their past and called either Golden or Flat Coated based on Color.
And again ….Work ethic and drive translates into a better dog for what segment of the population. Last I checked Hunters were not the majority. But Soccer Moms are pretty high on that list.
Check yourselves before you criticize the ingredients.
BTW American Cockers are a variant of English Cockers. In either litters the “type” goes either way. With both variants often showing up in each litter. As far as spaniels go American Cockers are just as workable as their owners ethics are. With coat trimmed down they are usable as bird dogs and flushing dogs.
And again… health is relevant to…. history and lineages and the care taken in knowing both. Monitoring existing foundation stock and progression of progeny produced ongoing.
I had a hard time reading the post – a lot of run on sentences and a bit rambling. However it is definitely neat to see more people talking about this stuff. The AKC and it’s ilk needs shaking up.
Yep i agree no matter what I would choose to do differently I still say good on them if more people where willing to travel this road & openly & honestly disclose what they see & learn along the way there is much to be gained from these types of breeding programes.
[...] Taking on the old school dog breeders « The Retriever, Dog … This entry was posted in Uncategorized by admin. Bookmark the permalink. [...]