What I am about to write is quite controversial, but it is not designed to denigrate the Shetland sheepdog at all. The Sheltie has proven itself as an intelligent breed that is of great use as a herding and competition dog.
However, I think the evidence of the traditional accounts of its origins are largely false.
The traditional account claims that the small collie-type dog is derived Scandinavian and Icelandic herding spitzes that were brought to the islands in the eighth and ninth centuries during the period of Norse settlement. Later contact with the Scottish mainland brought an influx of collie-type dogs, which created a small herding breed that was well-adapted to herding the small Shetland sheep that were native to islands. When the islands were eventually ceded to Scotland in the fifteenth century, more collie blood came to the islands, and the dogs became sort of small spitz-collies.
In late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, these little collies intrigued the growing dog fancy, which had suddenly enamored by rough collies. The small collies from Shetland were bred to the larger rough collies, and the breed became established. It was initially recognized as the Shetland collie, though rough collie breeders didn’t accept this designation. In the vernacular, the dogs were often referred to as “miniature collies,” but if rough collie breeders didn’t like the term Shetland collie, then they certainly wouldn’t like this name. So in 1909, the breed’s name was changed the Shetland sheepdog.
The problem with this theory of the Shetland sheepdog’s origins is that there is very little evidence for any of this.
It is often said that the sheltie is derived from a small dog called a toonie, but if you look closely, that name makes very little sense. Toonie dogs were named because they were kept by people in villages or towns, which in the Scots language is “toun.” A toonie dog would be a dog that a person would keep in a town or village, not as working farm dog. The dogs might be derived from toonie dogs, but if they are toonie dogs, they aren’t working collies.
And the truth is the Shetlands did have working collies, but every mention of a working collie from the Shetlands never refers to it being small.
The first accounts I encountered of a collie from the Shetlands mentioned one that was a superior seal retriever. The story of this dog comes from Chambers’s Journal ( 9 August 1884).
A good dog is a useful auxiliary to a sealhunter ; but he requires a good deal of training to learn his work. Very soon he acquires the art of stalking; but most dogs at first are apparently afraid to lay hold of a dead seal floating in the water, and very commonly, when sent off to fetch him ashore, simply attempt to mount on him, and in consequence do harm rather than good by helping to sink him. But generally—not always, for some dogs we never could train to do the right thing—we succeeded in teaching them to retrieve. When we had brought a seal home, we used to throw it over the jetty or out of a boat with a stout cord attached, and encourage the dog to fetch him. Great praise was bestowed when he learned to lay hold of a flipper and tow the selkie shoreward ; in this way, with a little patience and perseverance, the dog soon came to learn what was required ; and many a seal was secured by his help, which without it might inevitably have been lost, for a seal shot in the water from the shore, which they often were, was very generally on the opposite side of an island or long promontory, where a landing had been effected ; and it took many minutes before the boat could be got round ; and by that time, but for the dog, the seal might have sunk.
We tried many breeds of dogs—Newfoundland, Retriever, St Bernard, Rough water-dog, and Collie; but after all, the best seal retriever of the lot was a Collie. When he comprehended what was wanted and how to do it, he did it neatly and thoroughly. I well remember the first seal I shot I had landed on the weather-side of a small island. A cautious reconnoitring discovered a good-sized seal ‘lying up’ on a detached rock. Then I commenced the stalking, closely followed by my dog. But ere I could approach within range, one of those seal-sentinels and provoking tormentors of the seal-hunter, a herring gull, set up his wild warning scream.
The seal perfectly understood what it meant, at once took the alarm, plunged into the water, and disappeared. I sprang to my feet, rushed down along a little promontory, and then crouched behind a big boulder, in hopes that selkie would show his head above water and give me a chance at him. And he did. Raising his head and neck, he took a good look shoreward ; but seeing nothing to account for the gull’s persistent screaming, he turned round, and raised his head preparatory to a dive. I had him well and steadily covered ; now was my chance. I pulled the trigger; no splash followed, which would have meant a miss; but the lioom—that is, the smoothing of the water by the flow of the oil—told that my bullet had taken effect ‘ Fetch him, old dog ! fetch him !’ I cried. In an instant he plunged into the sea and swam to the seal, which I could see was floating. Neatly he dipped his head under water, seized a hind flipper, turned it over his neck, and towed him towards the shore. Passing the rock on which I stood in his way I to the beach, he turned his eyes upwards for the praise and encouragement I was not, it may well be believed, backward to lavish on him. Such a look it was! I shall never forget it, instinct with the brightest intelligence, joy, pride, triumph. Indeed, I don’t know whether he or his master was proudest and happiest that day. Alas, that our noble ‘humble friends’ should be so short-lived! (pg. 508).
The original size for a Shetland sheepdog in those days was 10-12 inches at the shoulder, and their ideal weight was around 10 pounds.
To think that such a little dog would have been of any use in retrieving a large seal is quite laughable, but things get even more dubious when we consider that such a dog would have ever been of much use in managing sheep in the Shetlands.
Both border collies and rough and smooth collies have a long history as herding dogs. Every breed book that features these breeds has a photo of some Auld Jock figure standing next to his sheep herding dogs, but you won’t find that with Shetland sheepdogs.
The thing is that collies on the Shetlands really weren’t used to herd sheep.
No.
Yes, there are sheep on the islands, and yes, there are collies.
But if you actually looked at how the Shetland islanders actually managed their flocks, you can easily see why such a small dog would have been of very little use.
Shetland sheep are short-tailed wool sheep that lived almost as feral animals on the islands. Although smaller than other short-tailed sheep, they were quite wild. One of the earliest accounts of Shetland sheep comes from a Dr. S. Hibbertin 1822:
The sheep are allowed to run wild among the hills, herding and housing being almost wholly unknown in Shetland. There is an old law, that was probably introduced by the Scotch settlers, ordering that every scathold have a sufficient herd, and that builling, punding, and herding, be used in a lawful way, before, or a little after, sun-setting; and that none scare, hound, or break up their neighbours’ punds and buills, under the penalty of ten pounds Scots, besides damages; but the regulation has not, for a long time, been enforced. On the contrary, the sheep are almost to be regarded as in a state of nature, since they range at large over the scatholds during the whole of the year. No food is provided for the poor animals during deep falls of snow, nor is there any friendly shepherd to drive them to some buill, or dry place of shelter, where the lives of numbers of them might be preserved. Upon the approach of a storm, a sense of common danger causes them to congregate for self-defence beneath the shelter of some rock on the sea-shore, where they protect themselves from the cold, by the warmth which arises from their bodies in a crowded state; or, if they are covered with snow, hunger impels them to tear portions of wool from each other’s backs.
Whenever it is requisite to catch any sheep, they are hunted down with dogs, trained for the purpose, which Wallace, the historian of Orkney, describes as a sport both “strange and delectable.” When a flock is in sight, the Shetlander seizes hold of his had-dog, (the ancient Scandinavian name for a sheep-dog,) and points out to him a particular sheep. The dog then bounds after his prey: the flock are immediately alarmed, but soon perceiving the particular individual that is the intended victim, they restrain their flight, and allow the pursuit to be uninterruptedly confined to one object of selection. The poor animal is then chaced from hill to hill, until he falls into the power of his pursuer, who is taught to seize him by the foot, the nose, or the ear; or perhaps he perishes by tumbling over some precipice, where he is either dashed to pieces upon the stones, or falls into the sea.
As the sheep of one scathold, island, or parish, constitute a promiscuous flock, which may belong to more than a hundred individuals, it is remarkable that more frequent disputes should not arise respecting the rights of possession. No property of this kind was ever secured without the means of had-dogs; it was therefore a proper regulation that none of these animals should be kept in secret. An ancient act of Shetland declares, “that none keep sheep-dogs but such as are appointed or allowed by the Bailiff, with the advice of the honest men of the parish, whose names are to be recorded in the Court-books; and each of them to be accountable for their actings.” It was also ordered, that all dogs should be tried yearly by the Bailiff, the ranselmen, or other honest men belonging to the parish in which they are kept; and if any individuals should be found to possess a had-dog, who had no property in a sheep stock to entitle him to keep such an animal, he should be fined and the dog hanged. The next object of the ancient legislators of the country, was to see that each dog which might be kept to take sheep, was under proper controul, and that he was not what was named a running dog, whom the old acts of Orkney characterise as “a dog that runs frae house to house, or through the country, the neighbours’ sheep;” such a dog would be not only prompt to seize a sheep for his master, but would have little hesitation in providing mutton for himself. Whenever, therefore, the ranselmen in their annual examination of dogs, found out any of these freebooters, they put in force the act, “That all running dogs be discharged, under the pain of forty shillings, to be paid by the owner of the dog, Mies quoties, and the dog to be hanged. But since this act was framed, a sort of demoralization has taken place in the character of the canine race of Shetland,—and it would he difficult to say, at the present day, what dog was not a running dog. Mr Shirreff, in his agricultural survey of the country, has complained, with great justice, of a rapacious ranger, of this kind, which he observed, who, without any order from his master, would break off at the first unfortunate sheep that he saw, throw him down, give him a good biting, and then return, unchided for his cruelty, to his owner, who seemed to consider the treatment as a matter of course. “The fact is,” adds the narrator, “that there is so little profit arising from sheep stock, in the present state of landed property, compared with fishing, that the landowners and tacksmen do not put as much value on a sheep, as in Great Britain on a hare” (pg. 184-185).
Exactly how would a small collie have been of any use for this endeavor? Shetland sheep may be a small sheep, but they weigh 75-125 pounds. They were also unused to being handled, and if a dog were to be of any use catching them, they would have to have some size to them. A little 10-pound collie would likely be killed trying to grip a sheep in its jaws– if it could run it down in the first place.
I have seen footage of a collie catching sheep in exactly this same manner, but I cannot remember if it was in the Shetlands or on the St. Kilda Archipelago, where the notoriously wild Soay sheep live. The collie used to catch the sheep was a black and white border collie of the normal size.
The people of the Shetlands kept their sheep in much the same way Southerners kept their hogs. In South, it was a common custom to turn the pigs loose in the forest and then use a catch dog to manage them. This dog was invariably a bulldog or pit bull of some sort, but in some areas, different types of curs were used to actually herd the pigs. But catching was the more common way of management.
You don’t want a little dog for these purposes.
I have found no accounts of Shetland collies being significantly smaller than those of the mainland until the appearance of small collies in the show ring.
Until someone provides me with a real description of a small collie working in Shetland at any time, I’m going to have to say that this breed’s traditional origin story is most likely not true.
The two earliest photos of show Shelties look to me like crosses with collies and either papillons or pomeranians.
Here is one from 1910. This dog was a show champion:

This dog is from Mason's Dogs of All Nations (1915 edition). The weight is listed as 7 to 10 pounds. Can you see a dog of that size catching even a small Shetland sheep?
I think this dog was entirely created by the fancy, and for whatever reason, it was given this story about them coming from the Shetlands.
That doesn’t mean they can’t herd. Both papillons and pomeranians will herd. Pomeranians are derived larger German farm spitz, which herded and ratted, and papillons, although traditionally thought of as spaniels, have some toy spitz in them as well. These dogs do yap, and shelties are notorious barkers. In fact they kind of remind me of a collie trying to be a Pomeranian or papillon.
The notion that the Shetlanders would have kept small collies to herd small sheep and cattle does certainly capture the imagination. Shetland’s little ponies also add to the mystique, for they suggest that everything on Shetland was smaller.
But if one looks at how the Shetlanders actually kept their sheep, the idea that their sheepdogs would have been so small is a very laughable assertion.
In the end, I think breed politics gave this breed its name, even though it has very little accuracy to its exact origin. The main collie club in the UK objected to the dogs being registered as “miniature collies,” so they registered them as something else. The Shetlands have all these little domestic animals, so why not stick these little collies with that name?
I don’t know why people have refused to look a little deeper into the evidence behind this breed’s history, but it just doesn’t add up at all.









Shelties LOOK like rough collies. How about an alternative hypothesis: some rough collie stock somehow, perhaps a simple mutation, or throw back, or cross breeding that imported the genes needed to restrict growth, threw miniaturized pups. These caught people’s fancy and they used them to establish a new breed. That isn’t inconsistent with your hypothesis . . . i.e., cross breeding to a pom or a pap. But if there was some cross breeding, it looks like subsequent back-crosses restored the rough collie look.
Given dog world politics, the assertion that the term ‘miniature collie’ got ditched due to objections from the collie fanciers has face validity.
This leaves the question, who were the breeders who guided the transition from big to small?
Collies actually varied a lot regionally.
Chris posted actual photos of Queen Victoria’s collies, and they looked like border colle retriever crosses:
http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2009/01/queen-victorias-border-collies.html
Some of these dogs were smaller in that they weren’t as large as the biggest border collies of today.
But I seriously doubt that anyone in Shetland was running 10 pound collies to catch even those diminutive sheep.
The rough collie as we know it today is a very recent invention. My guess is the Shetland sheepdog is even more so.
I think there is also a conflation with the Norse sheepdog that was leftover from the time the Shetlands were part of Norway. I don’t think this dog lasted very long after the islands became part of Scotland.
I’d just like to comment about the original little Shelties pictured looking like a Papillon x Collie cross.
Something you might want to consider is that in the breed history that I remember of Shelties there is mention of Toy Spaniels being used. I’ll try to find that somewhere but currently it is just in memory from previous readings.
If you look at this wiki photo – http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mom_and_daughter.jpg – you will see the offspring of a Spaniel mix dam and a Papillon sire. I know the dogs in the photos and the dam is Tibetan Spaniel x Cavalier(with some Cocker influence). The pup produced very much resembles those small original Shetland Sheepdogs – but for the tail.
You wouldn’t think it from this mix, but there it is. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PhalenexspanielmixTwig.jpg
Kary
If you are looking at the Sheltie as a Papillon cross, please remember that there are no Papillons recorded in the UK before the 1920s, and very few then…..if anyone knows otherwise, the Papillon Club would be interested to hear about it.
More along the lines of a toy trawler spaniel than a papillon.
Very interesting read thanks.
I would love to hear your take on the Tibetan dog breeds. Especially about the bearded dogs & larger dogs of Tibet.
Sam
you might have a look at this site: http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Oldies/Oldies.html
and this one http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/SheltieHistory.html. “small” is relative. The dogs were certainly smaller than the European dogs like Briard, Beauceron, even as most BCs are. The size was probably more like that of the Aussie (19″max height and 20-30 pounds) and yes, a dog like that can manage such sheep (I’ve seen it in herding events, including a take down). Crosses to the Pomeranian to get the “small size” and the show collie to “get type” are conformation additions long after the dogs were no longer herding. Keep in mind that in Belgium, there was a dog participating in the 1892 herding trial was “Menneke, of Mr. Ch. De Mulder, rue du Moulin, Forest. A little brownish-black dog, with smooth hair, not much bigger than a schipperke” — 19″ Belgians are not unkown. Selection of the SMALLEST dogs (possibly rejects from the actual herding breeders) would have led to a conformation dog much smaller than the original herding dogs. You see this all the time in conformation — smaller or larger, shorter or wider than the original working dogs.
There are border collies of that size, but I don’t think a small dog could haul seals out of the ocean.
Inverness Yarrow, I think, is the black and white dog at the top of this post.
Again, no proof that these dogs were from Shetland has been provided.
The black and white dog up above is Lerwick Rex. He was born on Shetland and imported to the U.S., becoming the first U.S. show champion in the breed.
Born in Shetland, but was he born to a crofter or someone who lived in the town of Lerwick?
Who was his initial owner?
There were lots of wealthy people living in Scotland who were doing dog shows.
Was this dog owned by a crofter, someone with a garden, or by someone with lots of money living in Shetland?
Because that answer will tell you a lot.
James Loggie of the Lerwick kennel, who was a townsman, not a crofter. Let’s change that from “no proof that these dogs were from Shetland has been provided” to “no proof that these dogs were from actively working warding-off dogs living on crofts in Shetland has been provided.” There were also the comments that the Inverness kennel name being from a town in Scotland rather than Shetland had some significance and the dog above was thought to be Inverness Yarrow (he isn’t). The general pattern here appears to have been one that was common in the late 19th/early 20th century, whereby “city” people would pick out dogs of a type they favored from the local canine population and develop it into a kennel club breed, often with crosses open and/or under the radar.
A so this Loggie chap could have made the whole story up?
Can you provide me evidence that this scenario isn’t tru? : Loggie was selling little mongrel collies from the Shetlands, and to puff them up, he made up stories about them.
He might have been a local dog dealer. Someone saying “I got me a genuine Mississippi white wolf dog! You want one? They’s $6,000 a pup!”
That’s the oldest story in dogdom, and it was very common with people dealing in so-called working breeds. It’s going on right now with curs and feists, and it certainly went on with collies.
Mark Derr, In A Dog’s History of America, writes about a period from the 1890′s until the Second World War in which people went all over to every little backwoods corner throughout Europe and America looking for regional dogs. It made good business sense for people to puff and contrive any number of breeds.
I highly suspect that this is what was going on here.
I think you just gave me the admission I was looking for!
“It certainly went on with collies.” As I said, a common pattern. He was a hotel proprietor and involved some in local politics, not an unusual background for middle-class people involved in developing show breeds. He easily could have done some dog dealing on the side, again like others (W. E. Mason was one). You don’t need to “highly suspect” that some of these things happened, many are readily discoverable.
“Loggie was selling little mongrel collies from the Shetlands, and to puff them up, he made up stories about them.” So there must have, after all, been some little mongrel collies on Shetland, the ones that Tudor didn’t see. What you’re looking for is in Iris Combe’s “Herding Dogs,” where she relates a story of some old fellow sidling up to her and making that very claim about Loggie and his dogs. (I can imagine the politics that went on in the formation of this breed, like so many others). Riddell’s account of the initial development of the registered breed differs a bit, his information coming from a visit he made to Shetland in the early 1970′s. Not that I agree with everything in his book, but he provides the names of other local people (conspirators?) who were involved. My comments have not been intended to “prove” that the Sheltie is a purebred descendant of tiny rustic Lassies (because it isn’t). But neither do I believe the “whole story” was “made up.” What I’ve seen is a rather typical turn-of-the-century style of breed formation where some local people of differing motivations decide to organize a club and develop a local type into a show dog, dress things up a bit, do some cross-breeding to get the “improved” type they want, etc. I guess it just isn’t a shocking revelation to me. Much in the world of dog breed history is based on various speculations, which are interesting to try out, and there is much that is contradictory in various accounts, but I would think one would want to get some easily-researched matters right rather than defaulting to assumptions like toonie dog being town dog.
Now, don’t assume that I’m as willing to poo-poo all official breed stories.
I recently took down a half-assed debunking of the Nova Scotia duck-tolling retriever’s history. I found an account of someone using a dog– and there was a photo of it– in Nova Scotia as is described in the official breed history.
If you can’t provide me with that, then I’m still going to be skeptical.
I’m a very hard nut when it comes to evidence.
Okay. Big flag for me: the registered name of some of these early dogs is “Inverness.”
Inverness is a town in the Highlands– actually not far from where golden retrievers were developed.
If these dogs actually were from the Sheltands, I’d expect a Shetland named worked in there. The only name I see that is connected to Shetland is Lerwick.
You’d think if these dogs were owned by Shetland crofters, someone would have mentioned them belonging to a farm family that is actually named. I don’t see that anywhere.
In that account of the collies catching sheep in Shetland, there would have been mention of the smaller size of the dogs. Hibbert was very descriptive about the sheep and just about everything else in his text. Not the dogs. They were just collies.
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/photos/Jarl2.gif This one looks like a papillon cross.
Most look like Papillon crosses to me as well. Keep in mind that the Papillon, at that time, was often solid colored and the erect ears had not yet been fully favored . . . so there were lots of the Phalene type. The semi erect ear is common in pups produced from a Phalene x Papillon cross, the Phalene x Pomeranian cross, and Spaniel x anything with an erect ear.. Again, it is mentioned in many King Charles and Cavalier King Charles Spaniel historical texts that there was intermixing with the Shetland Sheepdogs as well. I easily see Papillon, Pomeranian and Toy Spaniel influences in many of the early Shetland Sheepdogs.
Some comments – afraid this will get long!
The term “toonie dog” doesn’t have to do with towns. The word “tun” in Shetland comes from Old Norse and was used for the area around the farmstead. A notable job of the dogs in Shetland (and Iceland and the Faroes) was to keep the free-ranging animals *out* of this area. This didn’t require a large dog, so small dogs often were used and came to be called toonie dogs. The Shetland language, called Norn, was of Norse origin, and while it eventually died out, it left behind terms that are still used today. The many names for the many colors and markings of Shetland Sheep come from this source.
I’m not one who believes that the original Shetland Sheepdog was a rustic Lassie gathering sheep in the approved working collie manner, and am well aware of the various crosses behind them (a similar situation with many modern show breeds). However, I do subscribe to the view that the original Shetland dogs were spitz-type dogs brought by the Vikings, in the same way this occurred in Iceland. Shetland and Iceland were settled by pretty much the same people and many of their animals and stock-keeping practices were similar.
“The Edinburgh Magazine and Literary Miscellany” of 1818 names several types of dogs, including “the Shepherd’s Dog, or Colly,” but also distinguishes the “Zetland Dog,” described as: “Ears pointed, pricked; muzzle sharp; fur long, brown; bark shrill, and indistinct. This is the common dog in the Zetland islands, and approaches in character to the Greenland dog.” Now, I suppose one could take that to mean there were many large sled-pulling dogs in Shetland, but somehow I doubt it. I think the reference is to the dogs being of a spitz type.
In “Fauna Orcadensis,” 1813, George Low mentions of Orkney and the Shetlands that: “There are several varieties of the dog kind to be found here, as elsewhere, trained for different purposes, as the water and land spaniels, for fowling, and curs for giving warning by barking; but the most common are the shepherd’s dogs, and mongrels from it, called in general collys, or sheep-dogs.”
There are other early references to dogs being common in the Shetlands and largely of the “shepherd kind,” although that doesn’t provide much in the way of details. I’ve seen no evidence that sheepdogs disappeared for awhile on Shetland, so it doesn’t seem unreasonable to believe that when Scottish dogs came in, which they did as the Shetlands came under Scottish control, there were crosses. What percentage of this background does the modern Shetland Sheepdog carry? Hard to say, although I don’t believe the modern Sheltie is merely a Collie x Pomeranian x Papillon.
That particular individuals looked like this or that cross doesn’t prove much one way or another. Queen Victoria’s original collies looked more like retrievers than what is usually thought of as a Collie. One can go through Border Collies and say this one looks like a Spaniel cross, that one looks rather than a greyhound cross (and no doubt some of them were). But in many cases it is simply the variation that original landraces carried.
Generally I’m of the opinion that there were smallish collie-looking dogs (along with a wide variety of sizes and looks) among the Shetland dogs. Some people were attracted to these smaller ones and decided to make a breed of them. And in the way of show people, it had to be “improved” by accentuating “desired” characteristics — in this case, get it as small as possible and as close to a show Collie in appearance as possible. Pedigree analysis shows that the modern Sheltie is about 50% show Collie. Were all the rest Pomeranians and Papillons? I don’t really think so.
Some of the accounts of catch-dogs describe the handler as carrying the dog in his arms. And Shetland Sheep in the islands could be quite stunted. No, I don’t think 10-12 inch dogs worked as catch-dogs. But neither did the dog need to be particularly large. Buffon’s description of the typical Icelandic Sheepdog in the late 18th century was of a dog 14 inches in height, and assuming his artwork gives an accurate picture, looking rather like the Shetland Sheepdog that is being described as looking like a Pomeranian cross.
In 1883 John R. Tudor wrote in “The Orkneys and Shetland” that: “The Shetland sheep-dog, like the sheep, is of a small, diminutive breed.” Although he continues, less than flatteringly, “and appears to be far inferior in intelligence to the collie of the Mainland, and on the big sheep-farms the shepherds bring their own dogs with them from the south.” I’ve seen a couple of comments along those lines about the Iceland dogs, because their mode of sheep-work was not that of the familiar collie.
James Loggie, influential in the initial movement to make a recognized breed of the “Shetland Collie,” described it as being 14-17 inches, not 10-12. A 1908 account by a clergyman who lived in Shetland for several years spoke of them as being called peerie dogs, not collies, but that they resembled small collies and did the work of a common collie, and he gave the size as 12 inches. (Oddly enough, I have come across a couple of early references to collies being 12 inches and 14 inches, and unless Bewick and a couple of other early artists did not take care with scale, some at least apparently were fairly small. Not to mention Juno, the ISDS-registered dog who was the sheepdog trial champion of Wales in 1925, but I digress). All the same, one begins to suspect a situation of the Blind Men and the Elephant.
As for barking, Icelandic Sheepdogs wrote the book on that, no need to find a reason among Pomeranians or Papillons. Many of the basic herding behaviors and other characteristics I have seen in Icelandics and Shelties have been similar.
W. E. Mason and his friends in the Collie Club objected to the Shetland dogs being called Collies for the same reason they objected to any dog other than their product being called a Collie. Had someone tried to register a breed called “Border Collie” at that date, I have little doubt they would have received the same reception. By then, even the working collies were being spoken of by show Collie people as being “mongrelish” or indeed “mongrels.” James Watson denied colliehood even to the Smooth Collie and wanted it renamed “Smooth Sheepdog,” because only the longhaired dogs of Scottish origin were entitled to be called “Collies” (although indications are that a great many of the original show Collies were actually from England or Ireland in more immediate origin, whatever their further-back connections).
Two pertinent books are Maxwell Riddell’s “The New Shetland Sheepdog” and “Shetland Breeds ‘Little Animals, Very Full of Spirit,” 2003. Riddell’s book has, among other things, information he obtained on a visit to Shetland. The modern show dog was developed more off the islands than on, however, and as elsewhere in Britain, eventually the Border Collie moved in and displaced or absorbed the original working dogs. This is discussed in “Shetland Breeds.” The view there is that the modern Shetland Sheepdog is not the original animal – in the same way the modern Show Collie is not really the original working dog of Scotland (something true of many modern breeds). Dr. Stanley Bowie, a native Shetland living in the south of England, wrote that his father and brother had both bred Shetland sheepdogs of the “original type”, and said that on Shetland “they were known as toon dogs and were mainly used as watch dogs to keep sheep and other domesticated animals out of the enclosed arable land around a croft or farm . . . There is no record of them having been used for ‘driving, penning or catching sheep.” Dr. Bowie discusses the modern show Sheltie and the “so-called Shetland Collies which . . .were usually Border Collie crosses.” Also included, however, is an interview with a crofter, who talks about her present dog, a Border Collie, “but her granny, I’m pretty sure, somewhere back in her line, had Shetland collie in her . . . the Shetland collie, their principal instinct was more of a driving dog, as a garden dog [trained to keep browsing animals away from the gardens]. But they were very intelligent, and anybody who had the aptitude to train them could train the Shetland collies to gather . . . Basically the original Shetland sheepdog was small and mostly black and white but like everything else, you did sometimes get a different colour . . . The border collie is a working collie dog. It’s smaller than the Scottish collie {Lassie-type collie} . . the old, old dog in Shetland was a smaller dog still than the border collie, but not as small as the present day Shetland sheepdogs. {Loggie’s original 14-17 inches?} They were mostly black . . . They were more of a driving dog. Their job was to stop the sheep from raiding the crops . . . My very first dog was partly Shetland collie. The Shetland folk called them Shetland collies but then, you see, as time evolved they got called Shetland sheepdogs.” She describes how, as Border Collies were brought in, the old type of Shetland Sheepdog was bred out through crossing.
The reason why I didn’t mention Tudor is because he said the dog was stupid. That’s not an accurate description of the Shetland sheepdog. I don’t think he ever saw the damn thing.
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Do you realize that Icelandic sheepdogs have dewclaws on the hind legs, but I have yet to find a description of a Shetland sheepdog with these traits.
If Bowie is describing a small dog that did that, then that’s not a sheepdog. That’s a job a terrier could do. The Bowies weren’t using their dogs for sheepdogs at all, and if that’s true and the modern Sheltie is derived from that dog, then they aren’t sheepdogs at all.
I actually disagree with the etymology of toonie. Toun is the Scots word for town. Glasga Toun is the world for Glasgow City. Tounie is someone who lives in town. I honestly think someone just made that one up. I’ve seen that in books on Shelties. Anyway, a farm settlement would still be a town.
It depends on what you mean by smaller. A 30 pound dog could do everything suggested here, but there were 30 pound collies running around all over Britain. Queen Victoria’s Sharp was of that size.
The still catch sheep on the St. Kilda Archipelago. I’ve seen footage of it. The dogs they use look like normal border collies.
I don’t think these dogs are any more Norse than regular collies are. Even though the Shetlands were part of Norway for centuries, genetic analysis of the people of Scotland shows that they are actually more closely related to Norwegians than they are to other people of Great Britain. The Norse settlers left a huge genetic imprint in Scotland, and it’s likely that their dogs did, too. I don’t buy that the Shetland sheepdog is an Icelandic sheepdog. I think Pomeranian and Papillon fit better with what the British dog fancy was doing, and I’ve seen people create small dogs by breeding a toy breed to a large breed. There are tons of toy poodle/golden retriever crosses that look like Havanese or Cotons de Tulear.
There might have been Norse sheepdogs in Shetland, but I doubt that they lasted very long after they became part of Scotland. The people of Shetland might be proud of their Norse heritage, but no one speaks Norn anymore. No one is a Lutheran Christian on the islands. They’ve become Scottish.
BTW, can you tell me how a little dog is going to haul a seal out of an Ocean, and why only a few authors, like Tudor, who probably never saw one, mention anything about little collies there. There are lots of accounts of collies, but no one mentions size. No one mentions “garden dogs” either, which to me sounds like a job for just about any dog. A Jack Russell could do it. I don’t know why anyone would have a special breed for it, except that this also the exact same story that exists for corgis. And with corgis they have very hard evidence of it all.
I don’t think any of these things add up, and I also don’t think that this breed’s history, like that of so many others, has been given much hard scrutiny. I need more evidence than this, and I’d prefer it not come from breed clubs. My guess is the Bowie’s dogs were terriers crossed with collie, like border jacks. Then this takes us down a very different road. The actual sheepdog of Shetland was the collie, but the little dog of the tenant farmer was a different entity. It’s like the cur and feist delineation all over again. In Newfoundland, there is a very similar sort of dog called a crackie that is kind of like a little collie terrier cross. Newfoundland was heavily settled by Scots, so perhaps there is some connection there.
The Bowie source is interesting, but it bothers me because it appears to be cribbed from what I’ve read about the original utility of corgis. He wasn’t living in Shetland all his life, and I can tell you that a lot of people have a distorted view of dogs they knew as children. The woman who founded the Shiloh Shepherd thought that German shepherds were giant dogs. Well, when you’re five years old a 70 pound dog is going to look huge! There is also an account in golden retrievers that they have bloodhound in them. This is also wrong and also comes from a childhood account. There were a few bloodhound crosses but they were used to improve the bloodhounds, not the retrievers. Some accounts have the whole litter being drowned. Other accounts have them tracking deer but did not contribute to the bloodline. Also, there is the fantasy story about Chinese crested dogs being from China, when they were actually developed in the United States by crossing xolos with fuzzy dogs.
A 25-30 pound dog can hold a small sheep, but these aren’t tame sheep either. The footage of border collies catching Soay sheep showed that the dog actually had a very hard time hold onto the animal. Soay sheep are wilder than Shetland sheep, but that may not have always been. In readding Hibbert’s account, they definitely were pretty wild.
Yes, toun is the Scots word for town. Scots is a Germanic language and the root word is Germanic, originally indicating an enclosed place, which could vary from a farmstead to an settled village. In English (and Scots) it eventually came to mean more specifically a village or town. That doesn’t change the fact that tun in Shetland, from the Norse language, came to indicate the bit of land around a farm. See, for instance, “Whalsay: Symbol, Segment and Boundary in a Shetland Island Community,” Anthony P. Cohen, 1989, p96, fn. 4 “tun [accent mark over the “u” that doesn’t come out in the font I’m using (Old Norse): fenced plot or field. Whalsay people still refer to inbye grazing land, or to cultivated plots, as da toon.” Goes right along with what Bowie (and others) describe. Those “inbye” areas weren’t necessarily fenced, but they were considered as particular areas into which livestock should not trespass.
I agree Tudor was wrong about the dog’s intelligence. But I see where he would make such a statement, and I have seen other characterizations denigrating a particular breed as stupid because it wasn’t showing the biddability and finesse associated with the working collie. I’ve also seen, in old accounts, some pretty negative things about the farm collies of the Highlands, being useless dogs that spent most of their time chasing travelers. I’d accept that those travelers were there, and were chased by collies. You say that John Tudor probably didn’t see these small dogs he mentions. Yet he traveled through the Shetlands. I’m puzzled as to why he would make up something like that.
Do you mean there is no mention in the Sheltie breed standard of double dewclaws? Lots of traits that were (or even still are) in a modern breed are not mentioned in a current show standard, and in some cases an original trait or color is even penalized or disallowed by a modern standard. Double dews do occur in the Sheltie and are promptly clipped off. I’ve known several Shelties with double dews (including a pup in one of my litters). They aren’t common, and in the Sheltie are discouraged, whereas in the Icelandic, they are encouraged. Now I do not believe the Sheltie is a pure descendant of the Icelandic (or any other breed). But I think there is a relationship to some degree or another. (And I remember seeing an early account saying double dews were common in shepherd’s dogs in general, would have to go hunt that up).
I don’t think warding off a farmyard and chasing after sheep (or even catching sheep), are mutually exclusive jobs. Lots of accounts of Ole Shep doing those things. I think that generally in the Shetland Islands, the larger dogs would be used for catch dogs, smaller dogs limited to the tun work, but I doubt they was never any overlap. And those were only one of the strains/types that would be in the background of the modern Sheltie, anyway.
I believe that the collies have a great deal of Norse background also. Similar practices to Shetland occur (and occurred) in the Highlands and Hebrides. So no, one wouldn’t say that one is more “Norse” than another.
There are Poms and Papillons in the background of the Sheltie, along with other dogs. I don’t think the black and white dog in the picture is one of them. Little is known specifically about the background of these dogs, of course, but the black and white was one of Loggie’s Lerwick dogs, was influential in the modern breed, and Loggie wasn’t after Pom and Papillon sizes. According to Riddle, there was a rumor at the time was that he had crossed some of his dogs to a small working collie (not show collie), which would be more in accord with his particular goals. He got “outvoted” as it were, by the people wanting the smallest dogs. So if the question is, in blood percentage, is there more Pom/Pap (and/or King Charles Spaniel) in the actual ancestry of the modern Sheltie, than there is original Islands farm dog, that would be hard to prove one way or another. One can of course speculate, which is always interesting to do.
With regard to hauling seals out of the ocean, there were varying sizes and types of dogs on the Shetlands, just as there were in Iceland and other areas. I find it interesting a couple of that the earliest drawings of collies in the Highlands shows what look to be fairly small dogs. But since they aren’t photos, they aren’t proof, because there is always, of course, artistic license. However, I would think that Bewick would try to get it right, and Sydenham Edwards around 1800 says that the “shepherd’s dog” was around 14 inches.
I don’t think there was a dedicated breed for yard duty. They used the local landrace dogs that were there and fit the job. The same story being told about corgis just shows a similar situation. In the early days in Wales, the fields were unfenced, and they had the same need.
Along with the many types of dog on Shetlands there were of course terriers and no doubt terrier crosses. But it remains the case that warding-off work was a common sheepdog job, particularly in that context. The Icelanders used the Icelandic for the same work. Why would Bowie need to crib something from Corgi accounts, when they had the same condition (roaming livestock, unfenced fields), that led a similar use of the dog? True he wasn’t living in Shetland, so I have my own doubts about some aspects of his account, but the crofter in the interview was living in Shetland and says the same thing about dogs being used to ward off livestock.
And I’m saying this will full awareness of all the fanciful stories that get said about dogs. I see all those ads for “old fashioned German Shepherds” going on about their “giant” size, over 100 pounds. My “old fashioned German Shepherd” that I had in the 70s was the size of a typical GSD of today, as were the many others I was acquainted with. I’d love to have that type of dog again, but I don’t want it in a 100 pound size.
We had a long discussion on my chat room about Icelandic sheepdogs and collies. I don’t deny that they probably played a role– though I wouldn’t call them Icelandic sheepdogs. I would call them Norse sheepdogs.
Different collies, from what I understand, also get dewclaws on their hind legs, so that may not be as diagnostic as I thought. http://www.bordercolliekennel.nl/the_border_collie.htm
That feature may actually come from Norse dogs, but it’s not endemic to Shetland collies.
What I really would like to see besides anecdotes that quote crofters is an actual photograph of a crofter with his small collies. These dogs were not created at an ancient time, and one would think photos exist. There are photos of Skye terriers working on the Isle of Skye, but I’ve not seen a photo of a small collie from the Shetlands with a Shetland crofter.
Further, do we have evidence that any of these dogs came from named crofters on the Shetlands? I’ve searched the early history and it discusses only early show dogs. I don’t see any place that says Lerwick Lassie belonged to a crofter Jimmy MacLeod from Unst or something like that.
I need more definitive proof of connections between dogs called Shetland sheepdogs and the actual dogs of Shetland. I’m just not seeing it.
The best you have is the crofter’s commentary, but keep in mind that Scots love taking the mickey out of English people. One really messed up the golden retriever’s history. A keeper from Guisachan, where golden retrievers were developed, said they were derived from Russian sheepdogs. The man’s native language was Gaelic, not Scots or English.
There was an earlier fancier in the breed who promoted the breed as Russian and everyone knew that to be true.
Then the kennel records were released and the dogs are no more Russian than American Eskimo dogs are from Greenland.
I know of the entertaining tales like the Russian sheepdog. All the same, I don’t think the crofter was having her interviewer on, any more than I have seen a reason to believe that Tudor for some odd reason made up his account of there being small collieish dogs in Shetland (what would be the motivation? This was well before anyone got the idea of making a show breed of small collie-like dogs), or that Bowie was just copying something he had read somewhere about Corgis.
I’ve seen a few early photos from Shetland of what appear to be small collie-ish dogs with people stacking hay or sitting out in a field or in a chair in front of a house. As well as many larger BC-looking dogs and small muttley rather ugly dogs of just the kind to give W. E. Mason the vapors. There are some interesting films that can be seen online at the Scottish Screen Archive from the 1930s. One of these shows a traditional Shetland round up, a couple of others show dogs on Shetland of various sizes including some rather small ones hanging about in fields, one dog jumping at a cow as it leaves the barn, etc. As these documentaries are from the 1930s, I suppose the small dogs seen in them could be merely those Collie x Poms/Papillons (not to mention the King Charles Spaniel). Or they could be the remnants of the earlier type of “toonie” dog (they are shown on tuns after all) or “Shetland Collie” as the crofter describes. I lean toward the latter. Your mileage may vary. Needless to say they don’t look like a miniature of W.E.’s Ch. Southport Sample any more than Queen Victoria’s original Sharp did.
No., you are wrong. “Toun”, or commonly “ferm toun” was used to describe all the buildings and outbuildings of a farm. It still is today in parts of Aberdeenshire, where I have lived.
Elizabeth
http://cvc.cervantes.es/lengua/thesaurus/pdf/02/TH_02_001_195_0.pdf
No I’m not wrong.
http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/1_edin/1_edinburgh_history_-_recollections_edinburgh_names.htm
toonie
Somebody from the town or city
“I was born at 54 Lower Viewcraig Row, Dumbiedykes. I have lived in East Calder, West Lothian for the last 29 years, but still class myself as a toonie.”
Used that way too, but your point was that it could not refer to a farm, wasn`t it? And it frequently did, and in the north still does.
Elizabeth
It could.
But the evidence that the Shetlands were full of a very small collies is very much wanting.
All the evidence I’ve seen points to there being two sorts of dog in the Shetland. A collie that was the actually sheepdog, and then some little mongrels, kind of like crackie dogs in Newfoundland that were used as pets, rat killers, and yes, keeping things out of the yard.
I have not been provided with any evidence that the little collie-type dogs are the same thing as the collie of Shetland.
Instead, it’s seems to me more likely that the toonie dog refers to it being the dog of toonies, rather than the working sheepdog.
I’ll just give you a simple counterfactual.
The story behind the Swedish vallhund and Norwegian lundehund are very similar to that which is posited for the Sheltie, but we have lots of evidence of them being used as described and the dogs that exist now are firmly connected to the dogs in the breed origin story. More than one small farmer or puffin hunter is named as having the dogs and we actually have documentation that the dogs that live today descend from these dogs.
I’m not seeing this with any of the evidence I’m getting from Shelties. You gave me the Bowie family. That’s of interest, and I’m not dismissing it out of hand.
But what they had isn’t a sheepdog. It may have been nothing more than a collie/terrier cross or something like Newfoundland crackie dog.
Does anyone on the actual Shetland islands back any of these claims up?
But if the dogs were 14-17 inches at the shoulder that is smaller than a show collie and about the same size as Queen Victoria’s Sharp, who was a small black collie with drop ears and a smooth coat. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-GbegCZNlt8/SXml4ohJaSI/AAAAAAAABN0/XrVDsGYw0sY/s400/Victoria-at-Balmoral-Sharp-border-collie-1867.jpg Queen Victoria was only 4′ 11″.
He was of the Cheviot type.
I think there may be some confusion about size. Working collies were almost always smaller than the show dogs, which may be why we don’t get a big discussion about Shetland collies being so small. They were about the size of a typical working collies, though they were smaller than show collie that developed.
As to the tun work, I’ll note again the crofter’s interview in “Shetland Animals.” The warding-off dog “may have been nothing more than a collie/terrier cross,” or it may have been what the crofter described in the interview. I’d tend to give some credence to the crofter. Vallhunds and lundehunds are indeed more “authentic” in that sense, and I’m not arguing the same for the Sheltie. But nor do I think the Sheltie is simply a show Collie/Pom-Papillon cross. I do know there was a controversy over size in the early Sheltie between Loggie and those wanting the dogs smaller, and Loggie’s views lost out (in the end, the original standard was revised upward a bit anyway). In the same way, when the first Keeshonds were brought to the U.S., they were brought from Germany by a man who wanted to keep within the breed the original colors of white and black, along with the wolf grey. He was “outvoted,” and today, Keeshonds may only be grey. A lot of what ends up in show dogs can be a bit arbitrary, depending on which group of people prevails.
What makes feral sheep different?
Caribous and wild reindeer are fairly easy to herd. So are feral cattle.
Or are we just talking about the husbandry practice preferred by the locals, oppose to the livestock itself?
Sheep are mountain animals. When they are spooked, their natural instinct is to scatter and run uphill. We’ve selectively bred sheep to flock and bunch up when they experience predatory pressure. Certain breeds won’t do it at all. That’s why Soay sheep have to be caught with dogs, as did Shetland sheep at one point. They have a lot of “primitive behaviors.” From what I’m reading, if Shetland sheep aren’t handled regularly they are as wild as Soay.
Shetland sheep are not all that wild. I have worked with them. Soays, on the other hand are totally wild, and even dogs have difficulty with them. As I have always known sheep to be herded by dogs, I am puzzled as to what special method is meant by “caught with dogs.”
Elizabeth
Maybe they’ve changed over the years.
Caught by dogs means the dogs hold them with their teeth until sheep can be subdued.
I’ve seen footage of this with Soays.
Got you! You mean “gripping”. Yes, you need that, and everything else you can throw at it with Soays.
Elizabeth
So the breed histories in dog books are often just fairytales? The sheltie really comes from a show collie who isnt a real collie, but looks like a show Belgium Sheepdog, who doesn’t look like a real herding dog of olde Belgium ….? What, can’t we believe the wisdom in purebred dog books?
Yep, they are often absolutely bogus or a total misrepresentations of facts.
Or they are disjointed facts.
In weight pulling, dogs are well known to manage more than 18 times their weight. The account doesn’t say how big a seal it was. http://springforthdog.com/dogblog/tag/weight-pull But there’s an easy answer here. what does the full DNA say? the MDRI study (Breed distribution and history of canine mdr1-1, a pharmacogenetic mutation that marks the
emergence of breeds from the collie lineage in PLOS) shows the sheltie related to the collie and nordic dogs. Do any of the DNA studies show a closer relationship of shelties to pomeranians / papillons than to collies & border collies? what DNA studies compare the Schipperke and sheltie?
Use of corgis (who once weighed half what they do now), pomeranians, papillons to get size and rough collies for “look” is likely. What remains of the original dog from the Shetland Islands is difficult to say. I would suspect that it would be necessary to find fossil bones and do a comparison. Historical accounts are frequently skewed by someone’s erronious understanding (Von Stephanitz is fun in this regard as one can tell on occasion that the herdsmen were having a joke), skewed observation of one or two dogs and assuming “ALL” the dogs were like that, etc. But one can’t just cherry pick the account one likes and say “this is the truth”. Where accounts differ, one has to find if there is any validation one way or the other — and every genetic study I’ve seen puts the sheltie in with the collies as their nearest relations.
Pomeranian influence may well be teh same as Pointer /Dalmation — arguing Dalmations must derive from Pointers becasue of the LUA Dalmation is incorrect. Now maybe Dalmations derive from Pointers anyway, but you can’t use the LUA dogs as proof of that.
I’d love to see an open access DNA study of a whole bunch of dogs that I haven’t seen compared — Dutch shepherd, Picard, Belgians, Briard, Beauceron, Bouvier – and for the sheltie, an in depth (not just Y or MTDNA) comparison to collie, BC, icelandic, Lapphund, keeshond, pomeranian, Buhund and Lapphund.
I looked up the study you are referring to. None of the Nordic specimen were sampled. The faily tree you speak of was sketched by Linda Rorem and was concluded based on other people’s eritings. Andy Ward said it was inaccurate and corrected it.
There was a paper published, which I am working on obtaining which concluded Nordic and British dogs have completely different mtDNA distribution and neither one can trace their current lineage to each others.
The Savolonien study on haplotypes showed all Nordic breeds share the same mtDNA, albeit of varying population percentile sans two breeds: Buhunds and Vallhunds. Vallhunds can easily be explained: they started with 38 founders, only 11 remains in pedigrees after 1980s. Tessan, a founding bitch, ended up dominating the gene-pool. So any mtDNA data picked up would be hers, no matter who the current dog is. Buhunds have even fewer founders and suffered a much greater population bottleneck. These two factors alone would explain why the study failed to detect the haplotype other Nordic breeds have.
That would be an interesting paper to see, with interesting results, since it is known that the Vikings settled so extensively in Northern Britain and brought animals with them. However, it appears that modern breeds have been bottle-necked down so much that they don’t represent the full range that was there originally. Are there still any “farm dog” unregistered Buhund types, or is all there are, the registered ones with only the few founders? Landrace replaced by narrowly-based kennel club breed?
Pedigree analysis of the Shetland Sheepdog indicates 50% known show Collie ancestry (the actual percentage is probably a bit higher), and the show Collie population was already becoming limited in the usual kennel-club-breeding way, in addition to the 50% not necessarily meaning a great many show Collies were added, but rather particular ones who were then linebred upon. At this point my “family tree” remains the same, although I added a note to indicate that it wasn’t meant to indicate what Andy apparently was taking it to mean (“relationship chart” was more what I was after). His version is a different way of arranging things, or at least I’m unable to determine what the “correction” was. Perhaps an area I disagree with him on to some extent is the impression given that there is some kind of distinct lineal descent in the modern English Shepherd from the “English Shepherd’s Dog.” There is of course “English shepherd’s dog” in the English Shepherd, but plenty of “collie” too (general mixture of British-origin farm dogs, and maybe even some German ones as well, in the U.S.). These things are ripe areas of speculation.
Unfortunately, mtDNA and y-DNA only tracks parental lineage. The Nordic got their haplotype from a single Eurasian wolf bitch with an estimate of less than 480 years ago.
To establish true breed relations, we need complete SNP sequences. So far, according to Wayne, Corgis fall into collie subgroup. Parker found that Corgis are part-terrier; and Vallhunds are unrelated to Corgis.
The recent SNP analysis, retrieverman did a post on it, showed Elkhounds, Finnish Spitz and Samoyeds fall in the same clade. I would not be surprised if Vallhunds and Buhunds also fall into this.
Thanks, that is interesting — less than 480 years ago. Any landrace types left among the Scandinavian farm dog breeds, or are they all now pretty much the official breed-registry versions? I’ve noticed that the current Buhund standard doesn’t mention the wolf sable color that was formerly listed, and have wondered about that. Also the Buhunds I see all have the very tightly-curled tails whereas earlier photos showed some variation. (Same with earlier Norwegian Elkhounds.) The FCI Icelandic Sheepdog standard leaves out the black and whites (without tan) now, with black and white being defined as tricolor.
A common sequence: Early collie standard, “colour immaterial.” Later version, “Colour.—Immaterial, though a richly coloured or nicely marked dog has undoubtedly ‘a considerable amount of weight with judges—the black-and-tan with white frill and collar or the still more showy sable with perfect white markings will generally win, other things being equal.” Currently in the U.S., only “Sable and White,” “Tri-color,” “Blue Merle” and “White,” with the white to have color markings on the head. The FCI standard doesn’t allow the white. Two originally typical and common colors — black-and-white and black-and-tan, now essentially gone in the breed. Smooths and Roughs now two separate breeds in the UK now — did they think they had too large a gene pool? And so it goes.
Regarding Belgians, see photos here:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?set=a.303348089716872.86006.100001250516254&type=3
http://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?set=a.309184459133235.87109.100001250516254&type=3 and on my own web page here: http://www.kuymal.com/articles.html I’ll note that in Belgians, finding a photo of a working dog herding is VERY VERY rare. There are only a handful and almost all of those are “posed” shots. There are several breeds for which I’ve never seen an early photo. Photography wasn’t really that common before the show standard stuff started taking effect. So insisting on a photo of an early Sheltie working on the Shetland Islands — is there any photo of any dog working on Shetland Islands? Mostly one has to rely on eyewitness accounts and the occasional sketch or painting – and there are far fewer of these than for sporting dogs. As for veracity, as any historian will tell you, any account will have some error in it and sometimes the eyewitness didn’t really understand what they saw (a lot of people who don’t herd have no clue what the dog did or didn’t do in a herding trial. Try watching a video sometime and try to figure out when the stock will turn and why). What one does is compare an account with others or with known facts. And guess. If one could find the remains of dogs pre 1800s, it ought to be possible to verify size among other things.
Well, there is a photo of working Skye Terriers on Skye.
That there is a photo of working Skye Terriers isn’t really relevant. Skye terriers (or terriers in general) may have been of more interest (they seem to have been) to those with cameras. I’ve yet to find an early photo of the Sami, herding reindeer with their dogs. Even the not so long ago National Geographic special on the Sami had about 3 shots of the dogs working although they mentioned they were used. America’s sheep trails has about one paragraph (out of about 500+ pages) on dogs and it pretty much goes “and they used the dogs to control the stock”. Herding dogs were a poor man’s dog. They didn’t have the appeal of dog fighting (something the urban folk bet on, including upper class folk), had no connection with hunting, were pretty much “invisible”. Von Stephanitz wrote in 1927 and yet his images are some of the earliest one can find (and by the way, some of the dogs he has as herding dogs in Germany have a striking resemblance to Shelties — figures 105 & 106 — but there is no means of determining the dogs’ size from the photos although they “look” small). I’ve seen trial BCs that were very small –20 pounds. I’ll note that no one has yet decided if Schipperke refers to “little boatman” or “little shepherd” although the function has always seemed to be a sort of “terrier on boats”.
It is relevant because 1. everything you said about class and herding dogs applies to terriers and 2. we’re talking about the Northern Isles. Cameras were not unheard of.
Old German shepherd often look like collies. Not a surprise.
Actually, it surprises me how many turn of the century photos of ‘regular’ people and their dogs there are. Tons of them. It says something about the value of the dogs, that they would be included in a formal family photo, which was no doubt expensive and troublesome. But vintage photo sites are filled with them.
On my mother’s living room wall there is a photo of my several times great grandparents, in front of their home on their homestead, with their dog and their horse.
Um…
I have been working on an archive photographs, sketches and drawings of Nordic and Siberan spitzes which will be shared online someday. There are plethora of references to and photographs of Samis and their dogs. There are numerous historic photographs of hunting and herding laika with their respective tribes as well: Komi, Nenets, Evenks et cetera. The problem is: it is only a recent notion that these indigenous people should be referred to by their self-given names, not the names Europeans gave them.
You won’t find the photographs using English terminology: Norwegian, Finnish and Russian yields more results.
[...] Rethinking the origins of the Shetland sheepdog (retrieverman.wordpress.com) [...]
If you look up the history of show cat breeds, most of them admit to being totally bugus, or the name or the breed will be that of some far away exotic place, but then the next paragraph will tell you how one cat breeder made the breed up from cats she had in her own house.
Cat breeds often start from one kitten with a mutation, who is sold to a cat breeder.
The only field type cat is the type found on farms and running loose in poor areas.
The difference between the breedification of dogs and cats is that in cats the original type still exist, while in dogs in the USA and Europe mostly you just have breeds left, the original type is extinct.
If you are into horses you can see the shift there too. Most horses in the USA were not of any breed, but now many foals sold are of a breed or have papers. And not all horse breeds are old, the USA has several horse breeds many less than 200 years old. The history of the Morgan Horse and Justin Morgan is well documented.
And pig breeds? Many original types are gone. For example, the Shetland Bice.
And tropical fish? They don’t look like they did – the wild type is out in the wild somewhere but the tropical fish in the store are often show types.
Sadly the Sheltie does not seem to be the Shetland Sheepdog.
“The only field type cat is the type found on farms and running loose in poor areas.”
Based on my observations of a handful of farms in Wisconsin, with a handful more of anecdotal accounts(less than a dozen in all), farm cats are highly inbred. After a couple generations, you’ll end up with very uniform looking cats that look entirely different from the very uniform looking cats three farms over.
So, I don’t think its really accurate to say there is a wild type of farm cat.
raeganw, perhaps i did not explain my thoughts very completely. By “field type” i meant “having a useful function” like in field bred dogs.
By “wild type” i meant like in genetics, perhaps “natural” or “original” would explain it better.
And while cats on individual farms might be somewhat inbred, i assume if farm cats as a whole were compared to say purebred Russian Blue cats, i would guess the farm cat ‘breed’ to be less inbred, although i know of no study on this point.
It would seem that on farms where male kittens are pts at birth {because in that situation male cats often grow up to kill newborn kittens} then inbreeding would not be too high.
“And while cats on individual farms might be somewhat inbred, i assume if farm cats as a whole were compared to say purebred Russian Blue cats, i would guess the farm cat ‘breed’ to be less inbred, although i know of no study on this point.”
It doesn’t really matter if the cats of Homestead Farm are genetically distinct from the cats of Frontier Farm. Functionally they aren’t interbreeding. It’s the same as saying Field Trial Labs are genetically distinct from show line Labs. That great, but it doesn’t mean much because (for the most part) the two groups aren’t interbreeding.
My point is that there isn’t a field/wild/original/feral “type” of cat, like there is a collie “type” or spitz “type.” The morphology of cats is too diverse. You’ll come across free breeding cats that cover most of the entire range of purebred cats. Perhaps not to such refinement or extreme (often color is more vibrant and markings more distinct in selectively bred cats), but you could go to a shelter and find a cat that rough approximates nearly any official breed.
An important difference is that there is no club keeping people from bringing fresh blood into their farm cat line, and no club stopping feline Romeo and Juliets from getting together.
I doubt the long term inbreeding of promiscuous animals of the same species that run free and live close to each other. This is why street dogs in remote areas look alike.
What differences are there between your neighbor’s farm cats and yours except fatness and color? Because except for show mutations, domestics cats are much alike.
well, if photos are so easy to come by, then there ought to be early photos of the “non sheltie” herding dogs of the Shetland Islands predating 1860. I and others would be very thankful for photos, accounts, etc on some of the breeds that don’t seem to have proper documentation in that regard despite the rare occasional illustration or account that shows they “were there”. As for terriers, no, terriers were used as a hunting accessory so the wealthy individual saw such dogs while on the hunt or as the “gamekeeper’s dog”, or later, in the gaming venue. The herding dogs were out in fields, pretty much invisible to the wealthy folk. You see a very few paintings of landscape that incidentally include a dog or two in them, but most of these are from the romantic period of “idyllic shepherdess” and may or may not represent reality in terms of the actual individual herdsmen or their dogs. If anyone has a free access (or pdf) of an article comparing Belgians, Bouvier (both of them), Altdeucher, Dutchie, etc, I’d be grateful. As for the Sheltie, yes a full SNP study comparing them to a host of possible dogs might be useful — although as Linda points out, selection for the conformation ring means a lot of genetics gets lost – Borderwars just had a post on lost genetics and there is this one too. “http://opentheory.net/2011/09/odd-fact-you-arent-related-to-most-of-your-ancestors/
Again, DNA ought to tell if the Sheltie is a collie x pomeranian x papillon combination or if there are other relationships there.
Um…
SNP sequencing would not be affected by loss in the genomes. loss in diversity of the y-DNA and mtDNA will indicates a population bottleneck– or a series of bottlenecks.
SNP only looks at the information in the genome which makes a living organism, a living organism.
And before citing ancestral loss as an analogy in dog-breeding, read Hawks`s essay:
http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/genetics/populations/inbreeding_ap_2006.html
He went into great details about cultural implications. Likewise, dogs are also products of cultures.
yes, dogs are certainly the product of cultures. It’s why a Belgian shepherd is not a German shepherd. But again, if one really wants to know what a sheltie “IS” then the answer is to do a DNA study of a significant number (not just 5 or so as has been done in other tests) and compare to possible “ancestors” and see what the results are regarding relationships. Everything I’ve seen says shelties and collies are close relatives and does NOT say shelties & Papillion or shelties & Pomeranians are. I’m happy to see the DNA study that corrects my understanding if one exists. In selection, when you have a “closed registry” you lose a lot of genetic input –that’s been pointed out in a large number of posts here and elsewhere. Given enough selection and given what dogs one does or doesn’t use as “founders” in a stud book can eliminate a lot of genes that might indicate relationship. I’ll note that the initial findings of Neanderthal said they had no interbreeding with H. Sapiens. Now it’s known that they did, and that they had more genetic influence on “Europeans” than say, Australian Aborigines. The DNA finally validated what the bones had already indicated – that is, the historical record (ie, anthropological). So again, if one is asserting that shelties are a “made up” breed, the answer is to do the DNA and show that. As it is, I think Linda Rorem’s evidence is that there WERE small herding dogs in the Shetland Islands and that at least some of these dogs went into what is now known as the Shetland Sheepdog. How much transmogrification occurred in the process of becoming a “conformation dog” is a good question — apparently a lot, and this may skew what connections these dogs have with the original herding dogs of Shetland. The DNA so far shows the closest relationship is to the rough collie, itself derived from original working herding dogs.
Hmmm, interesting. I have had shelties for about 16 years (my last passed almost 3 years ago). I currently have papillons and have had 7 in total. I will admit that I see quite a bit of similarity in the two breeds and many of the traits I like in one I find in the other. But I have always read this as more of a testament that papillons are not pure spaniels like is often touted (aka ‘the original toy spaniel’ that hasn’t changed for hundreds of years and then magically erect ears popped up with no outcrossing) than the fact that the sheltie breed history is wrong. It is interesting to me that you take these similarities and see shelties as ‘collies trying to be papillons’ and I see the same thing indicating paps are not entirely spaniel.
Most sheltie histories I see will admit that small or toy spaniel found its way into the breed. And without a doubt the modern sheltie is a show bred creation and has never been a working dog. And it is a young breed. However, the original dogs on the islands, I am not so sure they were not herding type spitz. How much of that strain is left in the modern Shetland sheepdog is debatable, but I would bet not terribly much with so much collie going in. I do see a lot of similarity in Icelandic sheepdogs (although having only spent time with a few) in behavior.
I once saw an old picture of a dog from the Shetland islands that I cannot find anymore. The dog was blue and very spitz like. I would like to find that picture again.
While I’m very new to the research into dog breeds, I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all the posts. A few went over my head, most have been educational for me. I’ve been doing research into the history of the collie dog and have barely touched the surface. I hope you’ll bear with me if I am offering information that you deem irrelevant.
I’d like to offer some empirical evidence for your review. The link below takes you to one of the films that Linda mentioned from the National Library of Scotland. It is a 56 minute long _silent_ documentary from 1931 called “Crofter’s Life in the Shetlands”, It takes you through a year in the Shetland’s (I don’t know the proper term). As a history buff I found the footage riveting and have watched it several times. While it may only be from 1931, at least one of the dogs has to be at least 5 years old from it’s appearance. In addition take notice of the status of these gentle people. They are living in stone houses, with sod roofs. Their dogs are CLEARLY not show dogs of any kind. The films by this author in the archive were taken specifically because they wanted to document those living in the old ways, There are also at least 2 different farms represented.
The dog appearances in the linked footage are mostly incidental–sometimes only lasting 1-2 seconds or even less. I’m listing the locations on the film where dogs appeared, whatever you want to call those dogs is up to you. I only offer this as evidence for your own evaluation and leave it to the viewer to make their own determination. I know some of these sightings are the same dog, however getting a second look in different shot helps to evaluate their appearance and mannerisms. I use the term collie dog because it covers ALL the different styles of collies.
– 2m:24s 2 small collie dogs.
– 7m56S a black dog that appears to be collie runs by. 8m40s you’ll see a single frame of a collie dog, I believe it is one of the dogs at 42:20.
– 10m51 there is a 4th collie dog having “2 o’clock’s” with the peat cutters. at — 10m you’ll see a 5th collie dog.
– 32m50s you’ll see a 6th collie dog.
39.55, and again at 42m11s is the 7th appearance of a dog (sitting behind a chair)
– 40:43 several seconds of an collie dog.
– 43m37s there are 3 small knee high 30lb collie dogs.
– 42:35 we get a tiny glimpse of the back of a collie dog and at
– 50:19and 52:23 the little knee high collies are helping out with the wash.
The very best moments start at 42:20 during a section called “Some folks are always in the way” and stars on of the tiny collies from earlier in the film. It’s priceless!
In addition to this footage there are a others that I have found where collie dogs appear that from the same period but not in Shetland most of them look like a typical border collie of today, and really don’t look like the dogs shown in the Shetlands. I’m in the process of learning more about Scotland and all of Britain’s geography so the names listed on the films don’t help me and I have to take the time to actually study where these places listed in the movies are located. Most of the other films do require signing up for a library card online for viewing. They also say that have digitized copies of historical records that I do plan on searching as well. Anything that I find there I will happily share with you all.
Very interesting!
There are a few clips of dogs that could be described as small, but there are a lot of mid-sized dogs, too.
This is exactly what we and have seen in greater collie landrace.
Border collies have about the same variance in size, though not necessarily that small. The smallest border collies can be in the 20-25 pound range.
There were also very small collies all over England. The red decoy dogs from which tollers may descend were actually small red collie-type dogs.
OOPS! Here is the link http://ssa.nls.uk/film.cfm?fid=0981
The word “tun” is still used in both Norwegian and Swedish. The meaning is “the area close to the farmhouse”, or “yard”. “Yard” means “gård” in Swedish and it is easy to to see that the words have the same origin. In Sweden we talk about “gårdshundar”, meaning toonie dogs, in Norwegian they say “tunhunder”, meaning the same. Considering the history of the Shetlands, I think that “toon” actually means “tun” in the Swedish and Norwegian sense of the word.
Assuming that the dog you’re calling a Shetland sheepdog is even derived from Norse dogs anymore than the typical collie.
Norn, which is closely related Faroese, hasn’t been spoken in the Shetlands for a very long.
Does this word exist in Faroese is the more important question, not modern Swedish or Norwegian?
If it does, you might have a case.
The word tún exists in Faroese, meaning “yard”, according to http://www.freelang.net/online/faroese.php?lg=gb
I still think the Scottish etymology is more likely.
Norn and Faroese were nearly the same language, but the Shetlands have become entirely Caledonized.
Norn is an extinct language, and no one has spoken it since the 1700′s.
Toonie, however, is a common Scottishism. It refers to both small villages (toon is a town, adding ie is a diminutive). And it also can refer to an inhabitant of a town.
Toonie has never meant a small town. A “toonie” is someone who lives in a town – a disparaging term at that, used only on the East coast..
This is from the Dictionary of the Scots Language – sorry, but I couldn`t deeplink to it, somehow.
Toun, Town(e, Ton(e, n. Also: toune, tounn, tound, townn, toon(e, tun(e, touin(e, towine, -un(e, -en, townith, towinthe, thoun(e, thown(e, thowine, thon. [ME and e.m.E. tun(e (both Orm), ton (Cursor M.), toun (Manning), toune (1377), town (Trevisa), OE tún, ON tûn.]
In early use in place-names referring to a farm settlement. Hadyton; 1098 J. B. Johnston Place-names of Scotland (1970) 199. In Sprostona … decem acras; 1119–24 Liber Calchou 4. Clerchetun; c1141 Early Chart. 101. Kyrchetune; c1145 Edinb. Chart. 4. Hadingtoun; a1150 J. B. Johnston Place-names of Scotland (1970) 199. Ecclesiam uille mee de Langtune; c1150 Liber Calchou 106. Ex alia parte super terra de Aberbuthenoth que appellatur Kirketun; 1206 Misc. Spald. C. V 209. Elia de Haultone; 1214–49 Liber Melros I 241. Milnetun [mill settlement]; c1250 Barrow Anglo-Norman Era App. C. 200. Terram quam Willelmus de Alwenton eis contulit in territorio de Halsington; 13… Liber Melros II 331. Alexandro de Cokburne de Langtoune; 13… Liber Scon 147. Carta de Capronstown; 1388 Reg. Episc. Aberd. I 184. Cum tota villa de le Kyrktoune; 1403 Coll. Aberd. & B. 479. The towne of Sprouston; 1567 Liber Calchou 522. Rex … concessit Jacobo Bett … lie Nathertoun-mylne de Balmerinoche cum ejus terris; 1633 Reg. Great S. 754/2.
1. A settlement, a group of dwellings and other buildings inhabited by (a number of) the tenants of an estate; a farm or estate including dwelling house(s) and farm buildings and freq. the land. Freq. toun and lands, toun and sulʒe (see Soil(l n. 1 for further examples). See also ferme toune (Ferme n. 5)
Elizabeth.
It can mean a small town.
http://www.tripwolf.com/en/guide/show/752276/Scotland/Kirriemuir
Kirriemuir is called the “wee red toonie.”
He wearied of his strenuous work, and made for a village or ‘ toonie,’ as it was called (for in Aberdeenshire diminutives..)
http://books.google.com/books?id=uGwDAAAAMAAJ&q=toonies+scotland&dq=toonies+scotland&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tHfGT4DbOMTr6gHN5JzeBg&ved=0CFsQ6AEwBw
TOON
n – until the 19th century name given to an area of arable land on an estate with associated common grazing rights in the scattald, and occupied by a number of tenants; more recently, the arable enclosed land of an individual farm; each individual enclosed piece of arable land on a farm. I’m pitten da gimmers ida Lower Toun; a town, for example Lerwick.
John J Graham`s Shetland Dictionary
Elizabeth
Interesting. How recently is “more recently”? Could the word “toon” mean a different things to different people, i.e a farmer, an inhabitant of a town??
Ah, “toon can be applied to anything from the smallest croft to the largest city”, according to The Shetland Dictionary.
This Shetland Dictionary is REALLY interesting. I recognize so many Swedish words, old and new!
Quite a few remain in Scots, not just in the Shetlands, but along the east coast.
In Aberdeen, for instance, the word for a girl is “quine” – not too far removed
from “kvinna”
Elizabeth
I know, the vikings visited Scotland too…you have “bairn” = barn, “beck”= bäck, “firth” = fjord, for example. The word “baen-house” is interesting. This word is first seen in the 1800th century when the free church movement emerged. Why use the Scandinavian word “bönhus”, when free churches were common in Scotland?