Spanish water dog website
Check out this breeder’s website. (Not the same breeder as the puppies above).
The history is pretty good, although it is more likely that the more plausible theory is that these dogs originated from Central Asian (Turkish, Turkic, or Magyar) ancestors.
These dogs are both water dogs and herders, which is why I think they are the missing link between the water dogs and puli. The puli-type is most likely the ancestor of all of these dogs.
It is possible that these dogs wound up in the hands of the North Africans. These dogs were probably introduced by through trade. Remember, most of North Africa was Christian and connected to European civilization. It makes sense that some of these dogs would have wound up in Iberia, as they spread out of Asia into the Mediterranean.
I do doubt these dogs have an origin in North Africa after that part of the world became part of the Islamic world. No active herding breed exists in Muslim countries, although one can find livestock guardians in those cultures. I doubt that these dogs were introduced to Iberia by the Moors. Herding dogs are simply not part of Islamic civilization.
I also doubt that this breed is the “most ancient” of water dogs. In reality, that dog is long extinct. In Europe, it has radiated out into so many different breeds, including the water spaniels and retrievers of Britain, the St. John’s water dog of Newfoundland, the truffle-hunting Lagottos Romagnolos of Italy, and the ubiquitous poodle of Germany, France, and Russia.
The fact that Spanish water dogs are herders should tell you a lot about the origins of these dogs and their relations. The old name “Perro Turco” for this breed suggests two origins. Either these dogs came from Central Asia through Turkey, or they are the descendants of the Magyar’s puli-type dogs. The latter sounds possible because many Western Europeans referred to the Magyar people (who we call Hungarians) as Turks. (The name of the man who discovered grapes in Vinland was named Tyrkir. He is sometimes listed as a German slave, but he is also often suggested to be Hungarian. After all, the Norse were probably also calling Magyars Turks.)
See also The History of Water Dogs post.
The “ubiquitous poodle of Germany, France, and Russia” has retained much of its herding instinct as is demonstrated by this video – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRfS2-S_R2M No – this is not a working herding poodle, but it’s clear the herding instinct – along with biddability – is still in the breed.
One of the most remarkable things about the poodle is its versatility – it is both willing and able to be so many things – hunting retriever, herding dog, tracking dog, guide dog, service dog, circus dog, supreme companion, etc.
Yes, some poodles have herding instinct, but they aren’t used as much as the Spanish water dogs are. The Spanish water dog is a herding dog that moonlights as a water dog.
There are also two herding breeds that are called sheep poodles.
1. The German sheep poodle (Schafpudel): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/f/fc/Schafpudel_hist.jpg
2. The Dutch sheep poodle or Schapendoes: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/7/71/20050910135717!Schapendoes.jpg
German schafpudels can also be used as water dogs: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schafpudel&ei=cBn4SrywEdCk8AaKztjzCQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dschafpudle%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DETp
In that Jon Franklin book, one of the poodles does herd some loose cattle.
I tend to put poodles in the retriever and water dog category, just so they are distinct from the sheep-poodles, which are also herders.
Maybe a better way to think of it is that a poodle is a water dog that can herd, a Spanish water dog is a herding dog that can work as a water dog, and a Schafpudel is a herding dog that is sometimes used as a water dog.
Actually, Emily Cain – the inspired creator of the Poodle History Project – is quite convincing in her argument that the poodle (and what she calls the proto poodle, which gave rise to the modern poodle and its cousins) should be considered a working dog in large part because of its versatility. Oops – I forgot to mention carting dogs in my earlier comment….
Okay, I give you that on the proto-poodle, but the modern dog is considered a retriever. It may not be confined to that title (well, no retriever is, Chessies can herd.)
The reason why I’m doing this is because there is a difference between a dog that comes from a strain that is use primarily as retriever or water dog and one that can be used as one but primarily used as a herder. The two behaviors are not mutually exclusive.
These dogs are the missing link between the water dogs and herders.
I personally think poodles belong with the retrievers.
Regarding the assumption that the Spanish water dog is the missing link for early water dogs used as retrievers, this may be the case. However, assuming that the Hungarian Mudi is the “ancestral” herding dog prototype is, I believe, an error.
For one thing, there’s plenty of evidence for even earlier “water dogs” and intermixing of various herding dogs/ farm dogs/ retrievers starting with Rome. Rome’s occupation of Spain, “Gaul” and Britian allowed for heavy intermixing of dogs at the same time. While soldiers did not necessarily bring dogs, there was a heavy import trade from Britian of dogs for the Roman Forums and there was also shipping back and forth of camp followers, supplies, etc – needless to say, dogs came along, recorded or not.
The interrelations between Rome and the Anglo/Saxon invasions that followed Roman withdrawal of control of Britian are documented here: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/275/1650/2423.full
The Mudi is not a unique type dog. One can find similar dogs of equal or greater antiquity in the Italian Bergamasco (more or less like a Beardie), http://www.bergamasco.ca/, the German “sheep-poodle” http://www.herdingontheweb.com/english.htm
http://www.altdeutschehuetehunde.de/index.php?id=21&gallerie_id=4&gallerie_titel=Ausgesuchte%20H%FCtefotos (note by the way, the fox red color of some of these dogs).
We then have the Dutch dogs like the shapendoes (sheepdog) http://www.ig-schapendoes.de/html/rasse.html. And http://www.ig-schapendoes.de/html/welpen.html
There are illustrations of herdsmen on stilts in marshy areas of France/Belgium/Netherlands. It is not a big leap from a herding dog that will work in marshy areas to one that specializes in marshy/water areas and to combine that with a “fisherman’s dog” – there’s some early evidence of dogs of this type being used in Greece and Italy during Roman times. I am not asserting that a “breed” existed that dates back this far, simply that “a working type” and the genetics for lines that had these types of characteristics existed back this far. For early curly coat, see http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/LX/ParthenopeMytilene.html
http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Dogs.htm
vr, Peggy Richter
Yes. I don’t disagree with any of that.
BTW, the reason why your comment came up later is because it got sent to comment purgatory by my spam filter. I make it habit to check it every couple of days.