This dog’s owner has asked a question on yahoo answers about white markings in a golden retriever. The main question is whether this dog is purebred or not. The post is no longer taking answers, but I do have answer about this dog.
I was thinking he might have been a toller with black skin pigment, but then I saw a photo of his full brother. Further, this dog doesn’t have the really long coat that you very often see in tollers, which they get from their close collie ancestry.
His brother is a red golden of some recent field breeding.
Field line goldens, especially dark ones, occasionally have white markings. Adirondac goldens has a one of their dogs working as a SAR dog, and this dog has lots of white on her.
My previous post on white markings in golden retrievers shows an Irish setter with white in exactly the same places as the golden in first photograph.
In Marcia Schlehr’s The New Golden Retriever, the author talks about the extensive white markings on many of the early dogs, including blazes and white “socks” on the feet.
My first litter of goldens included a bitch pup that had these socks. She was a very drivey little girl, just like her mother, who had a white tail tip.
White was very common in some of the foundation lines of golden. Culham Copper had white feet and some white on his muzzle. His chest had as much white on it as the dog in question does.
In field line dogs, white markings always tend to pop up. For some reason, it seems to be associated with darker colors, although I’ve noticed that those with white marking tend to be a little lighter than the darkest goldens in the same line.
I hope the person who posted this question gets to see my answer.
Chances are very high that this dog is a purebred golden. And that’s where I’d put my money. Those people who say that this dog is a collie/golden cross are ignorant of coat color genetics. A sable collie crossed with a golden will not be a golden colored dog. It will be a black dog. Want proof? Look here. The only dog that isn’t a golden-collie cross on that page is the dog that looks like a golden retriever with collie ears. The only golden/collie crosses I’ve seen that aren’t black or black and tan are the backcrosses to either goldens or collies, and these aren’t very common. Most goldens are actually black dogs with a recessive gene that makes their color the cream to mahogany color.
Wow, I had no idea a Golden Retriever could have white on it. That’s so cool.
It’s not accepted in the breed standard, and usually those with white on them don’t have that much white.
Here’s another one with lots of white on it: http://z.about.com/w/experts/Golden-Retrievers-2532/2008/12/Abby-9-weeks.jpg
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Golden-Retrievers-2532/2008/12/Pure-golden-lots-white.htm
The dog is gorgeous with it’s white blaze. Not that I am knowledgeable, but I do have a friend with field bred dogs who pursues Obed and Field work with her dogs, and his body type says Field Bred all over it.
Who cares what AKC/National Breed Club says in the long run? For the over all health of the Breed, these dogs need to be crossed to. Color is so unimportant compared to athletic body type, temperament, and ability to retrieve in the field.
I very much agree, although the AKC and GRCA so vehemently disagree. “A few white hairs on the chest,” says the standard. Of course, light-builds aren’t used accepted in the show ring.
If you’d like to see another dog with the build but less color, check out the post I just did:
http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/golden-retriever-surfs/
Interesting. Has the standard always considered white undesirable, or was it added later?
Always.
Abby 9weeks is my dog. Her mother Zoe was a typical golden and her father Molson is the only one of his litter with any white but he is very dark gold with a wide white Blaze down his face a wide white chest and white feet. Abbys littermates all had similar white markings some not as pronounced.
It’s really not unusual for darker goldens to have some white on them. A lot of field line Irish setters have white on them (they are an ancestor) and the St. John’s water dog (which looked like a black Labrador with some white on it).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John%27s_Water_Dog
The dark golden is my dog Saturn. That is his brother with the white named Molson. They are both from a reputable breeder in Ontario who breeds for light weight Golden’s so they do not contract crippling diseases. He guarantee’s for 6 years now and uses his dogs for field, show and guide.
Saturn is my 3rd dog from the breeder. Originally I was going to take Molson because of his white but then changed my mind to Saturn because I wanted an all red Golden like in the movie Fluke. He has been breeding for 40+years now and told me he has only had 2 dogs have that amount of white on them. The great grandparents are a Texas Red Golden and the Great Grandmother is a English white. He also buys his breeding stock from the U.S. Saturn and Molson’s mother who’s name is Feather has a white fleck on her forehead. When I was at his place I was looking at his dogs and there was one that was a Purebred Golden but was dark red with a curly coat like a “curly coated retriever” I was amazed! He never mix breeds and does not even offer stud service.
I have pictures of the curly golden and more of Molson on my desktop at home. I’ll post them tomorrow.
Can you pass this info onto Molson’s owner?
Yes, I’ll email her. :)
You got your dog from a good breeder. Those really heavily boned dogs really do get the joint problems, and they are really cumbersome in the field. That’s why we don’t use Newfoundland dogs anymore. The big Newfoundland dog was often used as a retriever, but today, no one would use it. The dogs are trainable and many will retrieve, but they are too slow in the water and their joint problems are well-known.
In field line goldens you get all sorts of “old-fashioned” characteristics. White flecks and white markings are just some of them. The really curly ones are rare, but I’ve seen them that looked exactly as you describe it. Curly-coated retrievers are believed to have a lot of Tweed water dog/Tweed water spaniel in them. In fact, I have a description of a TWS or TWD by a flat-coat fancier, Stanley O’Neill, who came across the dogs of the coast of Berwick. He originally mistook the TWS/TWD’s for curlies, just they were red or yellow in color. Because the Tweed water spaniel was more of a retriever in appearance, I call them Tweed water dogs, not Tweed water spaniels.
Please send these pictures along. I would greatly appreciate it.
Your dog Saturn has excellent conformation.
When the standard says “good bone,” it means good bone but not cumbersome.
BTW, you do know that goldens originally came to North America through Canada?
At the very end of the nineteenth century, the governor general of Canada was John Campbell Hamilton-Gordon, 1st Marquess of Aberdeen and Temair (Lord Aberdeen) . His wife was Ishbel Marjoribanks. Her father was Dudley Marjoribanks, the 1st Baron Tweedmouth. He was, of course, the founder of this yellow strain of wavy-coat at his estate in the Scottish Highlands called Guisacah. Lord Aberdeen and his wife had an estate in the Okanagan Valley that was also called “Guisachan,” and they had yellow wavy-coats on that estate.
All of the early lines we have in the US originally came from Canada and then were augmented with imports from Britain. Goldens weren’t here in enough numbers until the 1920′s or 1930′s. And the ones we imported were of the type that was most popular in Britain and Canada at that time– the lightly built, red ones. The “American” or “field” golden in this country are derived from that stock.
Abby 9 Weeks.
I was wondering if Saturns owner could say where in ontario Molson and Saturn came from. Abby is from Rice Lake near Peterborough and Cobourg.
I thought that maybe on the off chance the Molson you are refering to could be her father, that it would be pretty cool. Abby turned one in June and her white markings have gotten somewhat smaller. The funny thing is that the picture of Molson shown on this site looks just like Abby but with more whit on the face.
Check out this litter o working type goldens in the UK:
http://www.fallowfen.com/dogblog/2009/07/29/working-golden-retriever-puppies-from-famous-working-lines/
These dogs have Holway breeding.
Saturn and Molson are from man named Al Bane in Campelford Ontario. About 15 mins away from the top of Rice Lake. I have his address and number at home. Abbey might have been from Molson’s first litter. They neutered him after the one breeding. He sired them about a year ago so it’s possible that he’s the father. I’m waiting for Saturn to show some white on the pups he sires. There was a pup with a tip of white on the toe but not much.
If you have email I would love to see some pictures of Abbey! dark_blue_pearl@hotmail.com.
Small world. Abby 9 wks. is Molsons pup. I thought this might be interesting to someone besides Melissa and myself. I sent her photos of Abby and she sent a pic of Molson and Zoe, Abbys parents in front of the house where we got her. I have the almost exact photo except in mine they are both “smiling” Who would believe that I could find my dogs families history in more depth on your site. Thanks Retrieverman!!
My puppy has a splash of white on her chest and had a white slash just above the eyes in the middle of the head. The white hairs have spread out across the forehead so that you can’t even see them. I know where to look so I can locate them—just over the eyes. I’m the only one who knows they are there. She shows some promise in the field so I couldn’t care less about any white.
I just had to leave a comment to say thank you for all the great information about white-markings on goldens. I’m currently in the middle of adopting a rescue pure-bred golden with extensive white markings and all of this information is quite fascinating. (my puppy to be is currently listed in the long list of available dogs on http://www.adoptalab.org–but her bio probably won’t be there much longer, once they update the site).
At any rate, thank you for all the great info on your site. :)
–melba
I was just given the link to this site by the family who breed our pup Bella. Bella is from the same litter as Abby (mentioned above)and sired by Molson (also above).
We constantly get asked if she is part Duck Toller. We even have had this question from a couple of reputable toller breeders and several people that have owned tollers or know about the toller breed. I have posted the link to a forum where I was asking about the “mysterious markings of our golden” (which contains some exceptionally interesting comments from golden owners)and a link to some cute pics when she was 3.5 months old on her first canoe trip.
Pictures at 3.5 months
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=44167
Discussion on her markings
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=41474&highlight=mismarked
The similarities between tollers and golden can be confusing. The first toller I saw was in a European dog book, and I thought the toller looked more like a golden than the goldens in the book.
Nice-looking dog.
Algonquin Park– isn’t that where the unique wolves live?
Thanks:) we think she is pretty neat.
You are right, algonquin park in Ontario Canada is where the unique wolves live.
My golden is light and yet has white markings. A little on the face, small white socks, tip of the tail and chest.
Is it possible for a golden to be light colored and yet have these markings?
Yes, but not very common.
Dikoo,
One of the males in the litter that Abby and Bella are from was very light with the white markings. Both Bella and Abby also are really not all that dark either. They are more of a medium gold colour. The darker pups from the litter actually seemed to show less white in this particular case. Post a pic of your dog :)
Thank you so much for your replies. I will try to upload a picture so that you can get a better idea.
I really appreciate your help!
[...] photo of a Labrador in the United Kingdom with lots of white on him. I have previously written about golden retrievers with extensive white markings. Badger certainly matches any white-marked golden I’ve ever seen in the extensive nature of [...]
[...] I have previously written about golden retrievers with extensive white markings. [...]
[...] Molson is a golden with lots of white on him who has appeared on this blog before. [...]
Hello everyone!!
Not sure if anyone still checks on this, but I am Molson’s mommy!! It is so nice to hear all of this positive chatter as we have a hard time explaining to people who see him on the street that he is indeed a purebred, and a wonderful little man!! haha…
I’m glad to hear that some of his puppies with Zoe are also keeping in touch and letting everyone know that the white markings were passed on!!
Molson in the picture that was used above…not sure where it came from?…but anyway he was just a young boy in the picture probably only about a year old…if anyone is interested further please contact me directly about pictures etc…i’d be happy to send you recent pictures….as well i’d love to see some pictures of his puppies as they have grown if anyone would be willing!! :)
Thank you to melissa (dark blue pearl) for keeping me up to date on all of the information, didnt realize though that this was in a discussion on the internet!! lol
Kate
feistychickie@hotmail.com
The dog is not a golden at all. It is a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever. Not related to the golden.
Wrong.
There are golden retrievers that have plenty of white on them– please read the post, and the owner confirmed to me that this is a registered golden retriever.
I’m not stupid.
I know what a toller is.
I’ve written extensively about them and how they are not goldens.
But white markings are fairly common in working type goldens.
And were common in the breed from very early on.
http://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/red-golden-brother.jpg?w=255&h=399
The dog’s litter brother.
Toller?
What are you smoking?
Still discussing my Abby’s family I see. How do I send newer pics of my
my dog and her sisters so that people can see that they are indeed Golden.
At least mostly golden. I’d like to get some new “opinions” on their breed(s).
Please look at my kid ‘Laddu’ he is 10 weeks old and got white chest.
I love him… but will he grow up as a typical GR?
http://www.dogspot.in/dogs/laddu-golden-retriever/